Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[workingpoor]

I hope Nigel Farage & Arron Banks  have spoken to Trump about this and Theresa May gets a very frosty reception on her visit next week. Any talk of a quick trade deal should be removed from the table until we can acertain whether the Government are going to allow ammendments to A50 negotiation plan from Labour / Lib dem / SNP and try and put the blame on them. 

C'mon Donny! 

Edited January 24, 2017 by workingpoor

[cock-eyed octopus]

32 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

... (in the EU politics always trumps the legal niceties)....

 

 

And yet you continue to defend this pile of pus. Incredible.

 

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You seem to forget that we are a major part of that someone else and fully involved in the decision making process.  The reality is well over 90% of the time the UK voted in line with EU decisions. Sovereignty is at heart having the power to influence outcomes and by being part of a much larger group the UK enhanced its ability to do that.    

In the brave new world we will be sucking up to much more powerful trade groups and bending to their will in order to secure desperately needed trade deals, that' not what I would call sovereignty. The sad fact is that even 20 years of doing this will not make up for us being kicked out of the single market.

No, I don't forget that, but going along with it is beside the point. Sovereignty is absolutely nothing to do with influencing wider outcomes, it's being able to do what you wish. You can certainly argue that we do better by handing it over (not that I'd really agree), but trying to pretend that that's the same as sovereignty is trying to redefine the word to be something else. Being forced to do something by circumstances (not that I agree that we have to be there either, that's only true for the big economy worshippers) isn't a removal of sovereignty either.

[kzb]

37 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

If we and the EU wanted to, they could agree to rescind A50 whatever the current test says (in the EU politics always trumps the legal niceties).

However, would the EU want to agree to this or are they now fed up of the UK constantly seeking special deals and happy to draw a line under our membership. That's a tricky one.

My point is, it's not under our sole control.  Revocation of A50 is dependent on the decisions of others. 

It's not up to the uk parliament on its own, like some people seem to think.

[DEATH]

Why didn't they introduce a law authorising the Government on June 24th or in the original Referendum Act? Cameron said he'd trigger A50 straight away.

Something fishy is going on, they are playing for time.

BBC now reports the Government is refusing to issue a white paper "at the moment" then adding "let's see how long that lasts!".

 

[nightowl]

Surely stalling for time suits the UKs negotiating position. At present the EU leadership are not going to not give in easily on any deal for fear of contagion, but as time passes its possible EU skeptism might spread amongst the EU residents and create new 'angles' on the situation.

[DiggerUK]

1 hour ago, TheBlueCat said:

.......Under the current EU view of article 50, it's two years and out regardless of a deal being in place.

 

2 hours ago, kzb said:

Whichever way they vote, we are out on 1 April 2019. (OK I know this might get extended but it does not affect the argument). The EU votes on any "deal", but even if they vote it down we are still out, on the agreed date.

You are both so wrong. That is the whole point of allowing parliament to decide to accept any deal, to begin the process.

I spoilt my ballot paper, and still don't care if we eventually stay or go. But what I do care about is losing rights I currently enjoy as a result of European legislation that has entered into law here.

 

At the end of negotiations the deal has to be ratified by european bodies. It's no use them giving a team of negotiators carte blanche  to do a deal that the don't find acceptable. Negotiating a deal involves two parties.

What do you think the reaction of the rest of europe would be, if they found out that their negotiators had agreed a deal that paid every UK citizen a million euros on leaving..._

[pig]

7 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

No, I don't forget that, but going along with it is beside the point. Sovereignty is absolutely nothing to do with influencing wider outcomes, it's being able to do what you wish. You can certainly argue that we do better by handing it over (not that I'd really agree), but trying to pretend that that's the same as sovereignty is trying to redefine the word to be something else. Being forced to do something by circumstances (not that I agree that we have to be there either, that's only true for the big economy worshippers) isn't a removal of sovereignty either.

Of course it is. Gun-nuts love guns because it makes them feel 'sovereign' over circumstance. The same streak of cowardly testosterone runs through all of this political bent.

If you crush the meaning of sovereignty down to the point where getting married is a loss of sovereignty, doing a business deal is a loss of sovereignty, joining a club is a loss of sovereignty, tying your fecking shoe-laces together is a loss of sovereignty to your shoes then what's the point of it ?

And if Sovereignty Botherers wish to 'gain' sovereignty from the EU but generally have a hard-on for handing it over to white supremacist sociopathic narcissists, then what do you really think is going on here ?

[Riedquat]

14 minutes ago, pig said:

Of course it is. Gun-nuts love guns because it makes them feel 'sovereign' over circumstance. The same streak of cowardly testosterone runs through all of this political bent.

If you crush the meaning of sovereignty down to the point where getting married is a loss of sovereignty, doing a business deal is a loss of sovereignty, joining a club is a loss of sovereignty, tying your fecking shoe-laces together is a loss of sovereignty to your shoes then what's the point of it ?

And if Sovereignty Botherers wish to 'gain' sovereignty from the EU but generally have a hard-on for handing it over to white supremacist sociopathic narcissists, then what do you really think is going on here ?

What are you on about?

[cashinmattress]

The UK is as sovereign as I am. We're in hock to banks, rely on Americans for defence, and have to cede something in one form or another to win trade.

When you no longer have an empire and are heavily reliant on outside parties for food, raw materials, defence, energy, you're not really 'sovereign' by definition.

The romantic vision shared on here by many of the UK's place in this century is wonderful, albeit incorrect. 

[Riedquat]

6 minutes ago, cashinmattress said:

The UK is as sovereign as I am. We're in hock to banks, rely on Americans for defence, and have to cede something in one form or another to win trade.

When you no longer have an empire and are heavily reliant on outside parties for food, raw materials, defence, energy, you're not really 'sovereign' by definition.

The romantic vision shared on here by many of the UK's place in this century is wonderful, albeit incorrect. 

Sure, there are plenty of problems with the UK's current position. Some of us would like to remedy them. Others appear to want to add to them.

[kzb]

22 minutes ago, DiggerUK said:

 

You are both so wrong. That is the whole point of allowing parliament to decide to accept any deal, to begin the process.

I spoilt my ballot paper, and still don't care if we eventually stay or go. But what I do care about is losing rights I currently enjoy as a result of European legislation that has entered into law here.

 

At the end of negotiations the deal has to be ratified by european bodies. It's no use them giving a team of negotiators carte blanche  to do a deal that the don't find acceptable. Negotiating a deal involves two parties.

What do you think the reaction of the rest of europe would be, if they found out that their negotiators had agreed a deal that paid every UK citizen a million euros on leaving..._

To begin what process?  You're not beginning a process, you're ending it.   I repeat: tell us what happens if parliament votes against the negotiated leaving "deal".

You said that question could not be answered.  Let me tell you:  the way it stands now, we are out after two years, irrespective of which way our parliament votes.  The vote may trigger the EU to extend the two year period, but that is not under our control.

You are right about the ratification of the deal by the EU.  But they can't stop us from leaving after two years (or whatever any extended period is).  If we get to two years (or whatever it is) without any special conditions ratified by the EU, we are out on WTO terms.

 

[Errol]

That's why May said it would be a deal or no deal - i.e. if at the end of the 2 year period Parliament votes down the deal we will be out of the EU in any event, but with no deal.

Enacting Article 50 sets the fuse running. At the end of the two year period you are out. Deal or not.

[Richmond]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

To begin what process?  You're not beginning a process, you're ending it.   I repeat: tell us what happens if parliament votes against the negotiated leaving "deal".

You said that question could not be answered.  Let me tell you:  the way it stands now, we are out after two years, irrespective of which way our parliament votes.  The vote may trigger the EU to extend the two year period, but that is not under our control.

You are right about the ratification of the deal by the EU.  But they can't stop us from leaving after two years (or whatever any extended period is).  If we get to two years (or whatever it is) without any special conditions ratified by the EU, we are out on WTO terms.

 

Maybe Parlement introduce a clause into the A50 bill saying that it can only be considered to have been constitutionally invoked if parlement approve the deal at the end. Doubt it would be considered 'in the spirit' of the law though or go down well, if it is even possible. And the EU will probably say on your bike regarding negotiations.

[cock-eyed octopus]

1 hour ago, cashinmattress said:

The UK is as sovereign as I am. We're in hock to banks, rely on Americans for defence, and have to cede something in one form or another to win trade.

When you no longer have an empire and are heavily reliant on outside parties for food, raw materials, defence, energy, you're not really 'sovereign' by definition.

The romantic vision shared on here by many of the UK's place in this century is wonderful, albeit incorrect. 

I suppose it was pointless emancipating all the slaves in 19thC America then. I mean it's not as if they gained any real freedom is it. I mean they just became wage slaves didn't they.

You may not have noticed, but none of us are perfectly free. That's no reason to add another burden on our backs - a burden which gives us naff all in return. The EU's a massive confidence trick for the benefit of the richest.

What amuses me is the way Merkel et al are making threatening gestures towards the USA. I don't like Trump, but I hope he gives the delusional twerps a good slap.

 

 

[DiggerUK]

Some of you seem to think that leaving the EU is as easy as walking out of a supermarket once your done.

Wake up, there are so many issues to sort out. Who is going to fish were?  What happens to the deal on health care?  What happens to Brits working in EU countries?  What happens to EU nationals working here?  What happens to Brits retired abroad?  What happens to EU nationals retired here?  What about protections we enjoy under European law?  What about liabilities we have to civil servants employed by European institutions?  What about their pension provision, how is that paid?  What happens to those Brits employed with the EU?  The list goes on.

 

Both the EU and the UK cannot simply  up sticks and flounce off,  any more than you can just walk out of a supermarket without settling your account. It's just nonsense talk to say "Brexit means Brexit".  

Ain't life simple..._

[ChewingGrass]

What happens next is that you local MP votes against the result of his constituents vote and then immediately resigns - watch this space.

[Richmond]

16 minutes ago, ChewingGrass said:

What happens next is that you local MP votes against the result of his constituents vote and then immediately resigns - watch this space.

Interesting. Go with their conscience and risk being out (voted or sidelined by their party) or go for their £75k a year plus benefits and pension etc and maybe a plum job from those that do this. I know which I would bet on...... But this is interesting times

[workingpoor]

Can i just make it clear that i do not give one **** about people's economic prospects or future life chances, i want out of the EU in totality.

 

[ChewingGrass]

5 minutes ago, workingpoor said:

Can i just make it clear that i do not give one **** about people's economic prospects or future life chances, i want out of the EU in totality.

 

Snap, get rid, then get rid of those born abroad who are not British citizens and of no net benefit.

[the gardener]

1 hour ago, DiggerUK said:

Some of you seem to think that leaving the EU is as easy as walking out of a supermarket once your done.

Wake up, there are so many issues to sort out. Who is going to fish were?  What happens to the deal on health care?  What happens to Brits working in EU countries?  What happens to EU nationals working here?  What happens to Brits retired abroad?  What happens to EU nationals retired here?  What about protections we enjoy under European law?  What about liabilities we have to civil servants employed by European institutions?  What about their pension provision, how is that paid?  What happens to those Brits employed with the EU?  The list goes on.

 

Both the EU and the UK cannot simply  up sticks and flounce off,  any more than you can just walk out of a supermarket without settling your account. It's just nonsense talk to say "Brexit means Brexit".  

Ain't life simple..._

I see nothing particularly difficult or insurmountable about those issues. Most could be settled given a couple of hours of thought.

 

The deal on healthcare? Well if that's the deal where we shell out £600 million to the EU for treating UK citizens in the EU but only collect £30 million or so from EU citizens being treated in the UK then I've got a suggestion; let's actually collect payment from EU citizens for being treated in the UK. With about 5 million EU citizens here and only 1.2 million brits abroad we'll be the winners.

[knock out johnny]

2 minutes ago, the gardener said:

I see nothing particularly difficult or insurmountable about those issues. Most could be settled given a couple of hours of thought.

 

The deal on healthcare? Well if that's the deal where we shell out £600 million to the EU for treating UK citizens in the EU but only collect £30 million or so from EU citizens being treated in the UK then I've got a suggestion; let's actually collect payment from EU citizens for being treated in the UK. With about 5 million EU citizens here and only 1.2 million brits abroad we'll be the winners.

So the issue on this particular matter is what we don't do as opposed to what the EU does - good - glad we've sorted that one out

Edited January 24, 2017 by knock out johnny

[workingpoor]

18 minutes ago, ChewingGrass said:

Snap, get rid, then get rid of those born abroad who are not British citizens and of no net benefit.

Right on Brother 

[knock out johnny]

48 minutes ago, workingpoor said:

Can i just make it clear that i do not give one **** about people's economic prospects or future life chances, i want out of the EU in totality.

 

Can i just make it clear that i do not give one **** about the fact that you want out of the EU in totality.

[workingpoor]

5 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

Can i just make it clear that i do not give one **** about the fact that you want out of the EU in totality.

That's cool Johnny i respect people that choose a side and make a stand, there is victory in defeat, "respect the vanquished enemy" etc 

What i can't stand is the two faced types that want to maintain the status quo out of either "fear of change" or some "putrid ideological beliefs"

Edited January 24, 2017 by workingpoor