knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, the gardener said: Are you a lonely old widow? She was brought up by the politicians of the time to support the introduction of the Poll Tax. Is it right that a family of 6 in a 3 bed semi should pay 6 times what the millionaire in his mansion pays? The Poll Tax was evil and we killed it. Good riddance. I;d rather we had the poll-tax - Children under 16 did not pay poll tax - did you know that when you you rioted? Why was the poll tax evil - I've just given you an instance when it's very unfair Why do you want to penalise lonely old widow's who live in a big house? (which I'm not) Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, the gardener said: The Poll Tax was evil and we killed it. Good riddance. Is that your version of "The people have spoken" You obviously have a hard-on for mob rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, knock out johnny said: I brought up France because I was hoping you could bring some primary source info from your missus - the links I've supplied show the UK in the lower third (at the very best) I'm not knocking the NHS - I need it. It's all i've got if I get ill, but you need to take the rose-tinted glasses off instead of hashtagb0LL0X and your usual jingoism Do you disagree tha eu countries billing the uk for the healthcare of our nationals is probably a bit of a bargain (in quality, cost and expediency) and a net saving. oh yeah, the railways? Really?? One of my wife's brother in law's is a nurse in France. You certainly get a lot of treatment in France though whether it's medically necessary or effective is open to debate. I must admit I was surprised to see France weren't even ranked on those cancer 5 year survival tables you linked to. Perhaps they've had to stop treating the healthy which always inflated their figures. I've never known anywhere with ad much cancer as France. All my wife's older family members have had it, and so have half the town. Not so with my English/Irish side. Either the French are particularly unhealthy or they are doing far too much screening and end up treating the healthy. Still it improves the rankings. Edited January 25, 2017 by the gardener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, the gardener said: One of my wife's brother in law's is a nurse in France. You certainly get a lot of treatment in France though whether it's medically necessary or effective is open to debate. I must admit I was surprised to see France were even ranked on those cancer 5 year survival tables you linked to. Perhaps they've had to stop treating the healthy which always inflated their figures. I've never known anywhere with ad much cancer as France. All my wife's older family members have had it, and so have half the town. Not so with my English/Irish side. Either the French are particularly unhealthy or they are doing far too much screening and end up treating the healthy. Still it improves the rankings. or stops people dying of cancer - which is kind of... like... you know... the point of screening and a health service Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, knock out johnny said: I;d rather we had the poll-tax - Children under 16 did not pay poll tax - did you know that when you you rioted? Why was the poll tax evil - I've just given you an instance when it's very unfair Why do you want to penalise lonely old widow's who live in a big house? (which I'm not) Yes i did know only the over 18s paid it. I was one of 4 over 18s still at home with my siblings at the time. 6 adults in a small house paying 6 times what someone living in Blenheim Palace would pay. Does that sound fair to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, knock out johnny said: or stops people dying of cancer - which is kind of... like... you know... the point of screening and a health service Screening throws up false positives. The more screening you do the more healthy people you 'treat' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, the gardener said: Yes i did know only the over 18s paid it. I was one of 4 over 18s still at home with my siblings at the time. 6 adults in a small house paying 6 times what someone living in Blenheim Palace would pay. Does that sound fair to you? Were you and the other three over 18's working and earning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, the gardener said: Screening throws up false positives. The more screening you do the more healthy people you 'treat' Screen no one - zero false positives. Everyone happy You're just being silly now Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 hours ago, knock out johnny said: Screen no one - zero false positives. Everyone happy You're just being silly now There's a sweet spot. France goes way beyond it. It's well known that the French over-medicalise and over-treat everything. One of my children came away from a French doctor with 8 different items of medicine; creams, bandages, pills etc for something that a doctor in the UK would have told you to pour a dab of Savlon/Germolene on. False positives are a serious problem in medicine. I note that you display the typical Remoaner black and white thinking by saying the only alternative to over-screening a population is to screen nobody. It's this sort of broken thinking that causes you to fear leaving the EU. My advice to you is to stop all or nothing black and white thinking, stop catastrophizing and forecasting. These sort of thought patterns are typical of depressed and anxious people. Get some help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, knock out johnny said: Were you and the other three over 18's working and earning? Some more than others. IIRC correctly they gave you a generous 20% discount for being a student/unemployed. Someone on a low wage might have found it a tad difficult to find over £300 at a time when their wage for a 40 hour week came to barely £100 not even considering travel costs etc. We still only had one wheelie bin between the six of us. Edited January 25, 2017 by the gardener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) Who can start the process of making Brexit law or introduce it into Parliament? Could it be any Member of Parliament? Edited January 25, 2017 by rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord D'arcy Pew Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 8 hours ago, Marshmellow said: what we need is a coup, a violent one The Elites are simply letting us know that voting is now useless. Legal skulduggery and protesting on the streets are the new methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbowed Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 52 minutes ago, Lord D'arcy Pew said: The Elites are simply letting us know that voting is now useless. Legal skulduggery and protesting on the streets are the new methods. Protesting in the streets, or violence. Taking up arms against the oppressor... no chance. The Elites have very sensibly made sure that the majority of the no-hopers live a pleasant enough life on the backs of others, through benefits. Those that are poorly paid or work part time, get further top ups. The net effect, many of them are at least as well off as someone earning 40K. So until the Government cant fund its borrowing anymore and real deep cuts to benefits occur, nothing will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Elite this, elite that, I really need to change my avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, DiggerUK said: Edited January 25, 2017 by ccc This site ffs !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 3 hours ago, the gardener said: There's a sweet spot. France goes way beyond it. It's well known that the French over-medicalise and over-treat everything. One of my children came away from a French doctor with 8 different items of medicine; creams, bandages, pills etc for something that a doctor in the UK would have told you to pour a dab of Savlon/Germolene on. False positives are a serious problem in medicine. I note that you display the typical Remoaner black and white thinking by saying the only alternative to over-screening a population is to screen nobody. It's this sort of broken thinking that causes you to fear leaving the EU. My advice to you is to stop all or nothing black and white thinking, stop catastrophizing and forecasting. These sort of thought patterns are typical of depressed and anxious people. Get some help. I've had a single French medical experience. I was very impressed. But thinking again it maybe was overkill. Something in between what we get here and France would maybe be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 <<Maybe Parlement introduce a clause into the A50 bill saying that it can only be considered to have been constitutionally invoked if parlement approve the deal at the end. Doubt it would be considered 'in the spirit' of the law though or go down well, if it is even possible. And the EU will probably say on your bike regarding negotiations. >> Article 50 is what it is. You can't hand in a caveated A50. That'd be like handing in your notice at work, but caveated to say you're only leaving if you get a better job first. Like I keep saying, we do not know if A50 can be taken back, once presented. There is going to be a European court case to decide that. Some people think politics will trump legal rulings when it comes down to it, and it will be possible to revoke A50. That might mean they have to go against a European Court ruling though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 24 minutes ago, ccc said: I've had a single French medical experience. I was very impressed. But thinking again it maybe was overkill. Something in between what we get here and France would maybe be good. I've managed to avoid any more difficult French medical experience than what the pharmacy could provide, and if the stereotype is at all true that's fine by me, I'm in no rush to have medicines shoved up from behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 37 minutes ago, kzb said: <<Maybe Parlement introduce a clause into the A50 bill saying that it can only be considered to have been constitutionally invoked if parlement approve the deal at the end. Doubt it would be considered 'in the spirit' of the law though or go down well, if it is even possible. And the EU will probably say on your bike regarding negotiations. >> Article 50 is what it is. You can't hand in a caveated A50. That'd be like handing in your notice at work, but caveated to say you're only leaving if you get a better job first. Like I keep saying, we do not know if A50 can be taken back, once presented. There is going to be a European court case to decide that. Some people think politics will trump legal rulings when it comes down to it, and it will be possible to revoke A50. That might mean they have to go against a European Court ruling though. As you say under EU rules A50 has to be invoked in accordance with the leaving countries constitutional laws. Therefore if at the end of the two years if for whatever reason the UK supreme court decided the governments actions in invoking A50 had been unconstitutional the whole process would have been null and void (bit like that series of Dallas that turned out to be a bad dream) and the government liable for all of the costs incurred by the other 27. If that happened omnishambles wouldn't even begin to cover the mess we would have got ourselves in (The government should really be giving a big vote of thank to Gina Miller for greatly reducing the risk of this happening). However, I cannot see the EU agreeing to commence negotiations if a clause such as you suggest had been included in the bill, at least not unless it also included full compensation to the EU for the many £billions of costs that would have been incurred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: As you say under EU rules A50 has to be invoked in accordance with the leaving countries constitutional laws. Therefore if at the end of the two years if for whatever reason the UK supreme court decided the governments actions in invoking A50 had been unconstitutional the whole process would have been null and void (bit like that series of Dallas that turned out to be a bad dream) and the government liable for all of the costs incurred by the other 27. If that happened omnishambles wouldn't even begin to cover the mess we would have got ourselves in (The government should really be giving a big vote of thank to Gina Miller for greatly reducing the risk of this happening). However, I cannot see the EU agreeing to commence negotiations if a clause such as you suggest had been included in the bill, at least not unless it also included full compensation to the EU for the many £billions of costs that would have been incurred. My first paragraph was quoting someone else upthread (the quote function went awry, that is why I did it like that). It's an open question as to whether we should be grateful for the GIna Miller case. Maybe they knew full well about this loophole and were reserving it for further down the line, as a get out of jail card. What I am constantly railing about is people thinking it is OUR parliament that is controlling the process. Just what are all these "amendments"? Do they think they can caveat Article 50 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, kzb said: My first paragraph was quoting someone else upthread (the quote function went awry, that is why I did it like that). It's an open question as to whether we should be grateful for the GIna Miller case. Maybe they knew full well about this loophole and were reserving it for further down the line, as a get out of jail card. What I am constantly railing about is people thinking it is OUR parliament that is controlling the process. Just what are all these "amendments"? Do they think they can caveat Article 50 ? I don't think the government is trying to hide a get out of jail free card, it would be a very high risk thing to do (someone else might use that card) and the fallout from the negotiations collapsing would make the government a laughing stock. Also the government has just announced there will be a whitepaper (after just yesterday Insisting there wasn't going to be one). I imagine that they saw something in the SC judgement that worried them that a 3 line bill may not be sufficient to avoid a further case against them for effectively bypassing parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Bloomberg: Quote U.S. private equity funds Blackstone Group LP and Carlyle Group LP are pushing ahead with plans to establish so-called passporting rights in Luxembourg to retain the ability to do business in the European Union after the U.K.’s exit, according to people familiar with the matter. Quote May Gives In to MPs Demands to Publish Brexit Plan Quote EU Says U.K. Banks Must Retain Its Standards to Keep Access Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, the gardener said: There's a sweet spot. France goes way beyond it. It's well known that the French over-medicalise and over-treat everything. One of my children came away from a French doctor with 8 different items of medicine; creams, bandages, pills etc for something that a doctor in the UK would have told you to pour a dab of Savlon/Germolene on. False positives are a serious problem in medicine. I note that you display the typical Remoaner black and white thinking by saying the only alternative to over-screening a population is to screen nobody. It's this sort of broken thinking that causes you to fear leaving the EU. My advice to you is to stop all or nothing black and white thinking, stop catastrophizing and forecasting. These sort of thought patterns are typical of depressed and anxious people. Get some help. If you'd gone to the doctor for something that you have since decided just needed a dab of Savlon then you sir are a dick I understand false positives - and the implications of false negatives. I also know first hand the implications of undertreating and would not wish it on my worst enemy. Linking this avenue of conversation to remainer/brexiteer mindsets is as pathetic and pointless as is calling brexiteers 'racists' Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, the gardener said: Some more than others. IIRC correctly they gave you a generous 20% discount for being a student/unemployed. Someone on a low wage might have found it a tad difficult to find over £300 at a time when their wage for a 40 hour week came to barely £100 not even considering travel costs etc. We still only had one wheelie bin between the six of us. Council tax or rates - pick your poison you obviously like a bit of violence - you've been intimating it on and off throughout this thread Does your cousin the QC recommend violence Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, knock out johnny said: If you'd gone to the doctor for something that you have since decided just needed a dab of Savlon then you sir are a dick You're not married are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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