Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Confusion of VIs]

4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Sure, there are plenty of problems with the UK's current position. Some of us would like to remedy them. Others appear to want to add to them.

Some of us think that leaving the EU, or more importantly the single market, is a pretty effective way of adding to them.

Of course it's impossible to predict what will happen in the very long term but in the short/medium term, we will be a significantly poorer country carrying even bigger debts.  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Confusion of VIs

[Confusion of VIs]

5 hours ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

 

And yet you continue to defend this pile of pus. Incredible.

 

That is a non sequitur.

It's usual within democracies that if there is sufficient political will the law is either conveniently ignored or amended to suit. For example until 2007 there was no way of leaving the EU, the creation of A50 was an example of politics trumping the existing legal framework. Would you argue that this should not have been done as it was against the rules we signed up to on accession.   

 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, the gardener said:

I see nothing particularly difficult or insurmountable about those issues. Most could be settled given a couple of hours of thought.

 

The deal on healthcare? Well if that's the deal where we shell out £600 million to the EU for treating UK citizens in the EU but only collect £30 million or so from EU citizens being treated in the UK then I've got a suggestion; let's actually collect payment from EU citizens for being treated in the UK. With about 5 million EU citizens here and only 1.2 million brits abroad we'll be the winners.

This is comparing apples with oranges.  We pay for healthcare out of general taxation, so any EU citizens here who is a taxpayer has already paid up front.   

Of course you can quibble about whether they have paid enough tax to be a net contributor but around 70% of British citizens would fail to qualify if we adopted that approach. 

[cock-eyed octopus]

8 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

That is a non sequitur.

It's usual within democracies that if there is sufficient political will the law is either conveniently ignored or amended to suit. For example until 2007 there was no way of leaving the EU, the creation of A50 was an example of politics trumping the existing legal framework. Would you argue that this should not have been done as it was against the rules we signed up to on accession.   

 

 

Politics, Parliament, can change the existing legal framework. This is not the same as the corrupt EU where the law is 'conveniently ignored'. Do you think the EU would have gone through the rigmarole we witnessed today in order to get its way? Hint: you've already answered the question.

 

[the gardener]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

This is comparing apples with oranges.  We pay for healthcare out of general taxation, so any EU citizens here who is a taxpayer has already paid up front.   

Of course you can quibble about whether they have paid enough tax to be a net contributor but around 70% of British citizens would fail to qualify if we adopted that approach. 

I was talking about non-resident EU citizens. We just don't bother collecting the money as the NHS is crap at charging people because it's set up to be free at the point of use.

[the gardener]

2 hours ago, knock out johnny said:

So the issue on this particular matter is what we don't do as opposed to what the EU does - good - glad we've sorted that one out

Oh I'm aware it's entirely our fault we don't do it. It's something we have to get better at though. Leaving the EU should give us the impetus to do it. Can't have EU foreigners sponging off us any longer.

[knock out johnny]

13 minutes ago, the gardener said:

Oh I'm aware it's entirely our fault we don't do it. It's something we have to get better at though. Leaving the EU should give us the impetus to do it. Can't have EU foreigners sponging off us any longer.

Or Nigerians at 350k a pop - leaving the eu wont sort that, but as you see all problems as an eu nail, your only tool to fix it is a hammer.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4123156/amp/Health-tourist-s-350-000-bill-paid-NHS-crisis-case-mother-flew-Nigeria-birth-two-twins.html

That you think eu nationals are here to take advantage of our not fit for purpose nhs makes you a laughing stock - how many adverts do you see for medical tourism to the uk in in-flight magazines?

I would further posit that eu countries billing the uk for the healthcare of our nationals is probably a bit of a bargain (in quality, cost and expediency) and a net saving. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by knock out johnny

[Marshmellow]

told you we will never leave

[Marshmellow]

what we need is a coup, a violent one

[the gardener]

22 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

Or Nigerians at 350k a pop - leaving the eu wont sort that, but as you see all problems as an eu nail, your only tool to fix it is a hammer.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4123156/amp/Health-tourist-s-350-000-bill-paid-NHS-crisis-case-mother-flew-Nigeria-birth-two-twins.html

That you think eu nationals are here to take advantage of our not fit for purpose nhs makes you a laughing stock - how many adverts do you see for medical tourism to the uk in in-flight magazines?

I would further posit that eu countries billing the uk for the healthcare of our nationals is probably a bit of a bargain (in quality, cost and expediency) and a net saving. 

Starting to charge EU citizens is not mutually exclusive to getting tougher on charging non-EU citizens.

Don't fall for the myth that EU healthcare systems are better or cheaper than the NHS.

#StopHatingBritain

[the gardener]

2 minutes ago, Marshmellow said:

what we need is a coup, a violent one

I can see violence on the streets if we don't leave the EU.

The Remoaners don't realise what they are stirring up.

[knock out johnny]

9 minutes ago, the gardener said:

Starting to charge EU citizens is not mutually exclusive to getting tougher on charging non-EU citizens.

Don't fall for the myth that EU healthcare systems are better or cheaper than the NHS.

#StopHatingBritain

try addressing my points instead of some jingoistic hashtagBOLL0X

Are other eu healthcare systems perfect - I'm certain there are horror stories. On the scale and frequency of over here? I think not.

Myy mate's dad got infinitely better treatment in cyprus than my mum did in here in Blighty with the same condition  - but I'll admit that is an anecdote and not data. Ask your wife about healthcare in France; I'd be interested to hear about it. As far as Spain and Italy are concerned, it seems pretty okay to me. Greece, admittedly is another story.

The NHS is scandalously expensive in some areas

[pig]

11 minutes ago, the gardener said:

I can see violence on the streets if we don't leave the EU.

The Remoaners don't realise what they are stirring up.

You are having a laugh.

We've had an MP murdered, weirdos squealing 'treason' the newpaper establishment going all proto-fascist and this court fiasco generally exposing exactly what kind of f*cktards we are dealing with.

At some point you begin to realise the dangers of giving a toddler tantrum any attention at all. 

[knock out johnny]

21 minutes ago, the gardener said:

I can see violence on the streets if we don't leave the EU.

The Remoaners don't realise what they are stirring up.

Wishful thinking on your part old chap

Does your cousin also want to become violent? Or does he understand reality?

Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny

[the gardener]

The healthcare system in France can be summed up in one word, wasteful.

It's expensive and wasteful and makes the NHS look a paragon of efficiency in comparison.

It's just like the absolute slagging British Rail used to get. People used to go on about how much better things were abroad. It turns out that actually it was the second most economically efficient railway system in Europe, just behind Sweden I think.

People just like to knock Britain and the British. In their mind Foreign is always better.

I wonder if any other country has an intellectual, liberal, middle class that hate their own nation as much as ours do?

[the gardener]

5 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

Wishful thinking on your part old chap

Does your cousin also want to become violent? Or does he understand reality?

I'm not advocating it, or condoning it. That's not going to stop it happening though.

I'm old enough to remember the Poll Tax riots, indeed I may have even been there myself. Allegedly. Or not.

When you anger the people enough they do something about it. That something isn't indulging in verbal and legal gymnastics pretending it's all about process whilst subverting and frustrating the will of the people. No, it'll be more physical and in your face than that.

[knock out johnny]

12 minutes ago, the gardener said:

I'm not advocating it, or condoning it. That's not going to stop it happening though.

I'm old enough to remember the Poll Tax riots, indeed I may have even been there myself. Allegedly. Or not.

When you anger the people enough they do something about it. That something isn't indulging in verbal and legal gymnastics pretending it's all about process whilst subverting and frustrating the will of the people. No, it'll be more physical and in your face than that.

You started  threatening rivers of blood a couple of weeks back - laughable

Poll Tax Riots? - you've got a fcking awesome track record - rioting to bring in an even more unfair system. I'd stay at home if I were you

Good luck getting past the M25

Ps - is your cousin contemplating/condoning rioting?

Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny

[knock out johnny]

16 minutes ago, the gardener said:

The healthcare system in France can be summed up in one word, wasteful.

It's expensive and wasteful and makes the NHS look a paragon of efficiency in comparison.

It's just like the absolute slagging British Rail used to get. People used to go on about how much better things were abroad. It turns out that actually it was the second most economically efficient railway system in Europe, just behind Sweden I think.

People just like to knock Britain and the British. In their mind Foreign is always better.

I wonder if any other country has an intellectual, liberal, middle class that hate their own nation as much as ours do?

Now you're just making sh!t up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_hospital_beds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

I'm not knocking Britain, I'm reading DailyWail articles about the dire state of the NHS

 

The railways! Really??

Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny

[the gardener]

12 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

Now you're just making sh!t up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_hospital_beds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

I'm not knocking Britain, I'm reading DailyWail articles about the dire state of the NHS

 

The railways! Really??

Your 3 links - in the first France doesn't even make into most of the ranking tables.

The second shows they've got lots of beds. Pity that half of them are filled by people who aren't even sick. In France you can spend over a week in a nice private maternity ward bed for no medical reason whatsoever. It's more of an hotel for the mother. In the UK you're out the next day if it's your first baby and the same day for subsequent births. My wife barely even got to lie down for our third child.

The third link shows France pays nearly more per capita than other countries. The rankings in terms of quality have also been roundly criticised.

Historically France have bigged up their heart disease figures by the simple ruse of not actually recording many deaths from heart disease, recording the cause of death as old age instead. Not sure a British doctor would get away with that trick here.

So your links, if not actually supporting my views, certainly don't contradict them. Well done.

[the gardener]

27 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

You started  threatening rivers of blood a couple of weeks back - laughable

Poll Tax Riots? - you've got a fcking awesome track record - rioting to bring in an even more unfair system. I'd stay at home if I were you

Good luck getting past the M25

Ps - is your cousin contemplating/condoning rioting?

Overturning an unfair tax does not make you responsible for it's replacement. Having said that I can't see how it was less fair than the Poll Tax. Enlighten me.

It may surprise you to know that quite a lot of Londoners voted leave you know.

 

[knock out johnny]

2 minutes ago, the gardener said:

Your 3 links - in the first France doesn't even make into most of the ranking tables.

The second shows they've got lots of beds. Pity that half of them are filled by people who aren't even sick. In France you can spend over a week in a nice private maternity ward bed for no medical reason whatsoever. It's more of an hotel for the mother. In the UK you're out the next day if it's your first baby and the same day for subsequent births. My wife barely even got to lie down for our third child.

The third link shows France pays nearly more per capita than other countries. The rankings in terms of quality have also been roundly criticised.

Historically France have bigged up their heart disease figures by the simple ruse of not actually recording many deaths from heart disease, recording the cause of death as old age instead. Not sure a British doctor would get away with that trick here.

So your links, if not actually supporting my views, certainly don't contradict them. Well done.

I brought up France because I was hoping you could bring some primary source info from your missus - the links I've supplied show the UK in the lower third (at the very best)

I'm not knocking the NHS - I need it. It's all i've got if I get ill, but you need to take the rose-tinted glasses off instead of hashtagb0LL0X and your usual jingoism

Do you disagree tha eu countries billing the uk for the healthcare of our nationals is probably a bit of a bargain (in quality, cost and expediency) and a net saving. 

 

 

 

oh yeah, the railways? Really??

[knock out johnny]

Just now, the gardener said:

Overturning an unfair tax does not make you responsible for it's replacement. Having said that I can't see how it was less fair than the Poll Tax. Enlighten me.

It may surprise you to know that quite a lot of Londoners voted leave you know.

 

Not as many as voted to stay #theLondonershavespoken

[knock out johnny]

3 minutes ago, the gardener said:

Overturning an unfair tax does not make you responsible for it's replacement. Having said that I can't see how it was less fair than the Poll Tax. Enlighten me.

 

I live alone in a big house - why should I pay the same as a five bedroom HMO full of Eastern Europeans 4 to a room. Surely you agree with me on this?

Edited January 25, 2017 by knock out johnny

[the gardener]

7 minutes ago, knock out johnny said:

I live alone in a big house - why should I pay the same as a five bedroom HMO full of Eastern Europeans 4 to a room. Surely you agree with me on this?

Are you a lonely old widow? She was brought up by the politicians of the time to support the introduction of the Poll Tax.

Is it right that a family of 6 in a 3 bed semi should pay 6 times what the millionaire in his mansion pays?

The Poll Tax was evil and we killed it. Good riddance.

[OnionTerror]

European Medicines Agency likely to go..

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-could-put-the-uk-second-rank-for-access-to-new-medicines_uk_58878757e4b0208540999300