cock-eyed octopus

The peasants are revolting! https://www.marchtoleave.com/

And you might not get your way, deal with it!

Just LMAO

I want us to enact the result of the first one, as we were told would happen. Then we can have another one if you like.

1) The EU is based on a false premise. In practice it's mostly for the benefit of Germany & France & sod the rest And if you haven't noticed African & other corrupt states simply lose/ignore votes & threaten physical violence. You're comparing the referendum to that? Out of your mind. 2) Recession. Economic Armageddon. Mass unemployment. Just by VOTING leave.And you are not God, you do not KNOW what will happen economically or socially whatever you might THINK. 3) If you think Soros is any kind of saint then you are mad. He was quite happy to make money out of bankrupting the country. 4) Love them to death?? I think they should've gone to prison! 5) I don't think the USA has a better democratic system than (most) European countries. But the EU's 'democracy' is utter sh!te.

And tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow ...

"Agreed. The referendum was invalid. It was worse than those held by despots in a poor African country. There was no rule of law applied for the need of truth. No consequences for the lies, just like the bankers got away with it in 2008. A perfect and historic example of faux democracy in the face of a mirage made from false claims." ____________________________________________________________________________ If you believe that then you are so far removed from reality as to be clinically insane. And I repeat, there were at least as many lies perpetrated by the remain campaign. They both made promises about the future that nobody could fulfill or be certain about. It proceeded on the same basis as any election campaign - empty promises & half-truths, Your lunatic hatred of 'The Rich' as if they're some sort of alien vampire race has distorted your reason. As I pointed out, you're richer than 99% of the rest of humanity, so where does that leave you? I suspect it's a quasi-religious thing; why is existence so poor for most people? I don't want it, it's nothing to do with me, it's so obviously wrong that it must be down to a cabal of supremely evil people. Well I don't think so. I think it's down to many incredibly complex factors inherent in all humanity, the worst of which, & the most intractable, is the fact that we are material beings.

I'm beginning to think you're a bit touched. Your sense of proportion is so skewed as to be borderline insane.

Absolutely. But the issue of race has divided America throughout its history (I believe they fought a war over it). But they don't, & cannot, have the idea of an American 'race' in the same way as the French (who just quietly stuff black immigrants in the banlieues). These are necessarily generalisations & do not apply to individuals. But I believe they reflect a national outlook, a belief in a country's place in the world. France & the USA both believe themselves to be eminently superior, but I believe for completely different reasons.

I think with the French it's racial. The USA cannot be that; I think it's based on their institutions & belief in democracy.

I know someone who's going through a divorce. It's messy & painful & they'll be financially much, much worse off - & their reasons for it look nebulous to me. But they're doing it.

Perhaps that's because what they get told about wider society conflicts with their direct experience of members of that society. This can work both ways. I knew a man who was a self-confessed egomaniac & an unreconstructed racist & homophobe. However, when he became chronically ill he came into contact with many foreign medical professionals who he acknowledged to be highly intelligent (he was willfully ignorant but not stupid). It was amusing to see the internal conflict thus engendered. He also greatly admired Stephen Fry. "I can't understand why he's never married" he once mused while watching him on the telly, sat alongside myself & my daughter. Cue hysterical collapse of parent & child ...

I think the plebs are 99% influenced by personal experience. That goes for everyone else as well.

Yes.

That's why it's not the best form of government. Democracy is bad, but all the alternatives are worse.

They revolted against being ruled (& taxed) by a remote power in whose administration they couldn't have any meaningful say (sound familiar?). Their institutions were based on the same democratic principles as ours, only more thoroughgoing without the class element.

I agree that there is nothing like direct personal experience of a place. However there is so much documentary evidence about America (actually mostly critical) I think it's possible to get a fair idea of the USA. Americans I've met suggest my conclusions are correct.

Of course there is self criticism. It's a question of scale & tone. The assumption in France is that France is innately superior to every other nation on earth.

Steinbeck yes, the others no. Bellow, Updike, Heller, Roth, Proulx, Flannery O'Connor, others I can't recall the name of. I tried Moby Dick bur couldn't get into it. Likewise The Call Of The Wild.

Do you think the French are self-critical about their own culture in the same way that we & the Americans are? Ireally don't think so. America is a vast country, & reflects a huge diversity of cultures within it, from redneck to Cajun to hillbilly to country & western to New Yorker to Californian to Seattle ... the flag, a belief in the USA providing the best opportunities in the world unites them BUT there is a lot of self criticism going on amongst many of those subcultures. Just read some American literature if you don't believe me. That just isn't the case in France. There is never a question of the innate superiority of France ( I quoted Sebastian Faulks', a Francophile, anecdote about the French a few pages back). You think Americans haven't criticised, say, the Vietnam war? Have you seen any of the films? This film about the Algerian War of Independence was banned for 5 years after its release https://www.1843magazine.com/culture/the-daily/the-battle-of-algiers-a-film-for-our-time I'm not saying there is no self reflection anywhere in French society. Just that there is a level of cynicism inherent in it which, while frequently preaching high philosophical principles, accepts dubious actions it finds necessary to maintain its own self interest with a Gallic shrug.

I really don't understand this. My experience of Europe is very limited (although I've worked with a lot of different nationalities) but the French have a completely different outlook - & an uncritical view of their own country seems to be a constant. This is an accusation you could hardly level at he UK or USA (which is both a strength & a weakness we have). One of the things that struck me about French society was the respect for intellect & age as opposed to our worship of youth & energy. As much as I find this respect admirable it leads to cultural ossification; how many decent French bands are there? Compared to the huge variety & invention in our music? America has produced an explosion of amazingly inventive music in the last 50 years - as have we - but I can't think of anything even vaguely equivalent on the Continent. The same is largely true of film, art & literature, although less pronounced. There's buckets of stuff I hate about America, but a lot of it is a byproduct of optimism & openness, qualities I find laudable. I think this is tied in with a tendency to wide-eyed naivety; they still believe that a John Wayne style sock on the jaw will make the baddies run away with their tails between their legs, never to return. A lot of Americans don't seem to set much store by thinking overmuch about stuff.

Not me. Despite my recent Franco-German ancestry I've never felt European. I have more affinity with the USA. After all, most of their institutions & pragmatic philosophical outlook derive from English ones. Their democracy more accurately reflects the population, warts & all. Which is what people are - a mixture of the good, the bad & the ugly. Trying to force them into some sort of ideological Utopia, no matter how well intentioned, will not work.

I wanted closer ties with the Commonwealth. I thought the CM was a bunch of countries trying to flog each other the same stuff (crudely speaking). I thought this could be a win-win situation. To start with we would have a market for finished goods & poorer countries for their raw materials, but eventually the poorer countries would have gained their own technology & thus we would have had access to a better educated & more sophisticated market as a result - we need to stay one step ahead generally, it's the only way we can survive. The richer countries are I think a better fit to trade with us as it stands. And we have closer cultural ties, which helps a lot. Obviously this could have been pure exploitation but I believe one of this country's main characteristics is its humanity. Personally the government I voted for would have been heavily influenced by its attitude to such trade (although, as ever, such decisions are complex). I'm afraid I've never felt European in any meaningful way. Too many cultural & philosophical conflicts for me. But I'm quite happy for the French to be French & the Germans to be German etc. - in fact I like it. As with many of the topics on here it's too complicated to sum up in a few paragraphs & I haven't got the time to do it justice.

It's the scale that's he problem. It's very difficult, if not impossible, for large organisations (say 1,000 employees up) not to become progressively less efficient. The feedback mechanisms disappear. They get lost in the competing structures that form within the group - individual ambitions get in the way of the overall goals & strategy of the company. You have to arrive at some sort of hierarchy which keeps dissatisfaction to a minimum,. It ain't easy. And given the size of the NHS it would be a near miracle to get a reasonable level of efficiency (i.e. beat outcome /patient for given resources. Nationalisation just adds another level of people disconnected from the front line. It's a bit like the EU really.

He may well have some such ideology. I'm sure people voted leave for all sorts of reasons, as did those who voted remain.