Tories on course to WIN Hartlepool by-election

[Sprite]

30 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Why do you persist in calling him Sir Keir Starmer when he doesn't like nor use the title?

It's his name. If he didn't want the knighthood, he didn't have to take it...

[Staffsknot]

56 minutes ago, pig said:

I know ex squaddies (old enough to have served in NI) who idolised Thatcher

From that era they loved her as put wages up for them. That bought the votes of a lot of the old Toms.

On the point on leadership it was more pressure situation folding / bluffing not details causing disaster at key moments. You don't want military leadership as a lot of that is reactive improv rather than the portrayed meticulous planning - it was ironically Tory thing fast track soldiers into police / teaching as they get things done... not a good plan

There was a mnemonic for diving we used in army by WO2 in charge of tge cadre too - BWRAF - meant to be stuff to check in diving, in his it was Bullsht Wont Rescue A Fck-up.

This guy was a liability but convinced of own ability and had never been challenged on it. Failures were ignored and anything he couldn't do he could opt out of, until then. Dad had made Lt Col so naturally so would he.

Johnson is similar - lazy and doesn't do details + he wasn't trusted by security forces at all even at FO. What he gets away with is the denial, remove that he's stuffed.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Staffsknot

[gp_]

5 hours ago, zugzwang said:

The great unwashed still think that Brexit means fewer Elbonians, not better qualified Elbonians! They haven't yet woken up to the fact that they've been lied to.

Really? I think that is a comforting lie remianers tell themselves about the "gammon", "great unwashed" etc.  The truth is that they are not stupid, they just have different interests and priorities to you. I do not think people who believe whatever tosh the Guardian prints are any better informed that those who believe whatever tosh the Mail prints.

If it was true, surely the leave campaign would have played along with it? You really think Nigel Farage went out of his way to say something the voters did not want to hear when he could just have kept quite about it? Where is the backlash against increasing non-EU immigration.

[gp_]

3 hours ago, zugzwang said:

From the results so far, the Conservatives are making largest gains and Labour feeling most pain, in areas that voted strongly for Brexit in 2016

Correlation does not imply causation.

At least some of those areas had a declining Labour vote for a while.

[bartelbe]

The country is conservative with a small c. Now to the more loony parts of the left, who dominated internet comment boards, that makes the country a place full of evil racists. I have seen more than one post comparing Britain today with 1930's Germany, which is just mad.

There is a majority among the electorate that roll their eyes at taking the knee, have little time for BLM matters and find claims that Churchill was as bad as the Nazis offensive. They also want lower immigration and immigration law to actually be enforced. That doesn't make them racist and intolerant and Labour are never going to win while they are associated with woke and open borders.

As for economics, polling shows there is actually support for many Labour policies. From nationalising the railways to higher taxes on the likes of Amazon. Increases in public spending are also very popular. However the caveat is even the most leftwing Corbyn true believer thinks that taxes should increase for someone else to pay for such spending. No-one is willing to see what they pay increased.

[dugsbody]

6 minutes ago, bartelbe said:

The country is conservative with a small c. Now to the more loony parts of the left, who dominated internet comment boards, that makes the country a place full of evil racists. I have seen more than one post comparing Britain today with 1930's Germany, which is just mad.

There is a majority among the electorate that roll their eyes at taking the knee, have little time for BLM matters and find claims that Churchill was as bad as the Nazis offensive. They also want lower immigration and immigration law to actually be enforced. That doesn't make them racist and intolerant and Labour are never going to win while they are associated with woke and open borders.

As for economics, polling shows there is actually support for many Labour policies. From nationalising the railways to higher taxes on the likes of Amazon. Increases in public spending are also very popular. However the caveat is even the most leftwing Corbyn true believer thinks that taxes should increase for someone else to pay for such spending. No-one is willing to see what they pay increased.

Labour should not be forced to choose. We should have left wing parties that respect both sets of voters.

We should have a party in this country with a viable chance of being in power who represent the people who do support progressive policies and being part of the EU which means open borders not just between four countries (England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales) but open borders with our European neighbours. The idea is we're all European and being able to live and work anywhere in Europe is a good thing, not bad.

The majority of Labour members supported remaining in the EU. But the way our voting system works it means people outside the populated cities have more powerful votes than those of us in the cities and therefore the only way Labour can win is to pander to the minority of its voters. It's bonkers. It's broken.

 

[Staffsknot]

55 minutes ago, bartelbe said:

find claims that Churchill was as bad

Actually there's a chunk of folks who can't see people as not Hollywood bad people bad things, good people good.

Churchill may have been see as the saviour of WW2 but prior to that he was viewed quite negatively, especially in working class areas. Gallipoli also tarnished his image - without WW2 he'd be viewed very differently and to many people in Ireland he's viewed like Cromwell for understandible reasons.

He could be an utter git but was the man of the moment in 1940s. As soon as WW2 was done he was kicked out. There's a lot of rose tinted specs about him largely as there is for the Empire. He's entered national mythology status.

But fora section of society the history book cannot say anything wrong about him even if its accurate. That's the state of where we are. Same as someone finds Henry VIII had a Moroccan archer there's howls its people trying to revise history with multiculturalism.

BLM is but one small issue for you just like antisemitism that Tories beat Labour with every 5 mins was possibly not a major issue to a van driver in Teeside but they had to deal with it. BLM is a massive thing to many inner cities and constituencies just probably not massive in a white family or not amongst younger gen.

However anytime Labour mention anything the media drag these out while Baroness Warsi's similar criticisms on Islamophobia in Tories seemed to get glazed over.

Today Boris talked about equality of opportunity as being levelling-up, which is a BLM aim is it not?

Now why is that important when said by Johnson but not when Starmer?

Just for reference same breath mentioned Brexit about 30 times and claimed it had helped him prevent the ESL as he thinks that is a good lie to make.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Staffsknot

[scottbeard]

3 hours ago, pig said:

But then interestingly you couldn’t even write ‘working class‘ without needing to prefix it with ‘white‘.

Jeez - obviously not all working class people are white but my point is that left wingers keep saying it’s all about immigration so I made a point about white working class people caring about more than just Brexit.

We can talk about black and Asian working class people if you want but it’s getting off topic to what happened in Hartlepool. 

[Trampa501]

SNP currently doing very well in Scotland, but they may find tactical voters prevent them getting a full majority - Labour and Lib Dems are holding up well with Conservative support.

Watch London. Apparently it's not a walkover at all for Kahn. A lot of Tories turned out to back Bailey. Could be close.

[HovelinHove]

10 hours ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

The Tories won Hartlepool.

The Tories won Hartlepool after locking up everyone for over a year, coercing people into getting jabs and robbing a generation or two of another £1T.

WTF is happening !!!

People watch the BBC, that is what is happening.

[pig]

2 hours ago, scottbeard said:

Jeez - obviously not all working class people are white but my point is that left wingers keep saying it’s all about immigration so I made a point about white working class people caring about more than just Brexit.

We can talk about black and Asian working class people if you want but it’s getting off topic to what happened in Hartlepool. 

Well obviously ! But its hilarious that your point about left wingers complaining about Brexiter immigration obsession, often made by wanging on about the 'white working class', is made by...having a wang about the 'white working class' .

Tbh it looks like the kippers - you know that part of the electorate encouraged to blame everything on immigration - turned Tory and has been kept triggered  by extending Brexit into a culture / identity war.

Hands orff my statue !

 

[Sprite]

2 hours ago, Trampa501 said:

SNP currently doing very well in Scotland, but they may find tactical voters prevent them getting a full majority - Labour and Lib Dems are holding up well with Conservative support.

Watch London. Apparently it's not a walkover at all for Kahn. A lot of Tories turned out to back Bailey. Could be close.

It'll be interesting to see what BJ does if the nationalist parties get a majority. 

London is a foregone conclusion. The very fact that the Tories put up a candidate like Bailey shows they never thought they had a chance of winning.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

6 hours ago, Sprrite said:

It's his name. If he didn't want the knighthood, he didn't have to take it...

It's not his name he refuses to use the title. The title came with his job. It's just people like you who wish to turn it against him like he is some elitist yet let an Eton baffoon like Johnson off the hook.

 

In 2008, Starmer named as the new Head of the Crown Prosecution Service and Director of Public Prosecutions; the person occupying the position, which they typically do for five year terms, plays a significant role in whether prosecutions are taken up. All of Sir Keir's predecessors received knighthoods for the role, and he was no different.

[FTB-house-hunter]

1 hour ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

It's not his name he refuses to use the title. The title came with his job. It's just people like you who wish to turn it against him like he is some elitist yet let an Eton baffoon like Johnson off the hook.

 

In 2008, Starmer named as the new Head of the Crown Prosecution Service and Director of Public Prosecutions; the person occupying the position, which they typically do for five year terms, plays a significant role in whether prosecutions are taken up. All of Sir Keir's predecessors received knighthoods for the role, and he was no different.

And everyone on TV who introduces him and talks about him as a Sir, because that is his title.  It's didn't come with the job, it was offered after he left the job.  He was free to refuse it, but he didn't.  He was also happy to use the title and talk about being a Sir during his party political broadcasts.  He is part of the elite and part of the problem Labour have.  He doesn't make a good leader for the party.  Labour is a dead party and imo it won't be long before it splits.  Boris is a very clever individual who plays the baffoon as it suits the image he wishes to portray, an image which works very well with the voters.

[Si1]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/people-hartlepool-say-keir-starmer-24064097

"Labour has lost its way," he said. "I am a working man, and the fact is that they don't represent me anymore.

"They are for public servants, the middle class, people on benefits.

"But if you are a working class person, in a normal job, they just don't seem to care"

 

 

 

 

Hartlepool-born Christine Appleyard, 63, on a visit to see her school friend Julie Sladen, 62, described the result as a 'bloody tragedy'.

The retired social care manager warned public services would go underfunded and local people would soon regret their choice.

"There will be big cuts to the public sector and that will hit the average man in the street, and areas with deprivation, hardest," she said.

"I am sure Boris is great at a party - I would probably invite him - and great down the pub.

"But would you want him to marry your daughter?"

[bartelbe]

13 hours ago, dugsbody said:

Labour should not be forced to choose. We should have left wing parties that respect both sets of voters.

We should have a party in this country with a viable chance of being in power who represent the people who do support progressive policies and being part of the EU which means open borders not just between four countries (England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales) but open borders with our European neighbours. The idea is we're all European and being able to live and work anywhere in Europe is a good thing, not bad.

The majority of Labour members supported remaining in the EU. But the way our voting system works it means people outside the populated cities have more powerful votes than those of us in the cities and therefore the only way Labour can win is to pander to the minority of its voters. It's bonkers. It's broken.

 

Sorry but this is why Labour lose. There isn't majority support for open borders with EU member states because open borders between countries with very different levels of economic development don't work. Poorer nations lose their most productive younger workers and workers in rich countries see their pay and conditions undermined.

There isn't true free movement in Europe, many richer EU countries place restrictions on their labour markets and enforce those restrictions using ID cards.

There was support for free trade with the EU but not open borders.

[bartelbe]

10 hours ago, pig said:

Well obviously ! But its hilarious that your point about left wingers complaining about Brexiter immigration obsession, often made by wanging on about the 'white working class', is made by...having a wang about the 'white working class' .

Tbh it looks like the kippers - you know that part of the electorate encouraged to blame everything on immigration - turned Tory and has been kept triggered  by extending Brexit into a culture / identity war.

Hands orff my statue !

 

The trouble is no-one bothers to talk to the white working classes. They are just stereotyped by upper middle class Oxbridge types in the media, who haven't got a clue.

Most of my family is white working class and according to the media they don't exist. By that I mean my relatives are care workers, cleaners and work in child care. All jobs that apparently British people don't want to do, which makes s**t pay and conditions OK for some reason.

My family generally oppose immigration but don't dislike immigrants. I know that will blow the mind of middle class people, the flatcap wearing masses aren't suppose to be able to do nuance and complexity.

My uncle, who worked in steel mills and then various factory production lines, before he retired; put it best. After new member workers were let in, a lot of Poles emigrated to his home town. He actually admired their work ethic but he couldn't compete with them. He had a family to support, he couldn't compete with immigrants who were living 6 to a bedsit. They could accept worse pay than him and work more anti-social hours than he could.

These were real issues for working class people, white and yes, non-white. Having middle class leftwingers scream racist at them when they raised their concerns about the effects of immigration and free movement was neither the way to win their vote or persuade them immigration was actually a good thing.

[micawber]

59 minutes ago, bartelbe said:

The trouble is no-one bothers to talk to the white working classes. They are just stereotyped by upper middle class Oxbridge types in the media, who haven't got a clue.

Most of my family is white working class and according to the media they don't exist. By that I mean my relatives are care workers, cleaners and work in child care. All jobs that apparently British people don't want to do, which makes s**t pay and conditions OK for some reason.

My family generally oppose immigration but don't dislike immigrants. I know that will blow the mind of middle class people, the flatcap wearing masses aren't suppose to be able to do nuance and complexity.

My uncle, who worked in steel mills and then various factory production lines, before he retired; put it best. After new member workers were let in, a lot of Poles emigrated to his home town. He actually admired their work ethic but he couldn't compete with them. He had a family to support, he couldn't compete with immigrants who were living 6 to a bedsit. They could accept worse pay than him and work more anti-social hours than he could.

These were real issues for working class people, white and yes, non-white. Having middle class leftwingers scream racist at them when they raised their concerns about the effects of immigration and free movement was neither the way to win their vote or persuade them immigration was actually a good thing.

Probably the best summary I have read on here.

[14stFlyer]

23 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Who was insulted and by what? 

The people of Hartlepool, and similar places. 

 

23 hours ago, Social Justice League said:

These b4stards would sacrifice their children to prove the point that Brexit was the right move.

By supposed left-wing liberal Labour voters, mainly in London and SE who despise them and consider them xenophobic, thick and contemptible. 
 

 

[Si1]

37 minutes ago, micawber said:

Probably the best summary I have read on here.

Agreed

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, bartelbe said:

Sorry but this is why Labour lose. There isn't majority support for open borders with EU member states because open borders between countries with very different levels of economic development don't work. Poorer nations lose their most productive younger workers and workers in rich countries see their pay and conditions undermined.

You've completely missed the point of my post which is that "Labour" should not even have to exist as a single party and lose as a single party. Try to read my actual post next time.

There is a large percentage of people in the UK who don't see it through your eyes. We see ourselves as European, just the same as you see yourself as British and you think it is natural that British people from Wales, Scotland, Ireland (N) and England can move around the union for better opportunities, so we see the same with Europe. We don't see it in the dehumanising manner you see it, where real humans moving for better lives should be controlled and boxed in and managed to control the economy.

Also, just as an aside, your argument about "Poorer nations lose their most productive younger workers" is pure brexiter bull----.  In two ways. The evidence shows that social mobility is a good thing. The poorer nations are fast becoming richer nations inside the EU, despite your so called argument. Secondly, it's a hypocritical argument because the entire point of ending freedom of movement for brexiters was to stop the poorer people moving and only allow the "most productive younger workers".

 

1 hour ago, bartelbe said:

There isn't true free movement in Europe, many richer EU countries place restrictions on their labour markets and enforce those restrictions using ID cards.

There was support for free trade with the EU but not open borders.

When we joined the EU back in 1970s, there was open borders already. Don't talk nonsense.

Edited May 8, 2021 by dugsbody

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

1 hour ago, 14stFlyer said:

The people of Hartlepool, and similar places. 

 

By supposed left-wing liberal Labour voters, mainly in London and SE who despise them and consider them xenophobic, thick and contemptible. 
 

 

By what were they insulted? You didn't answer.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

2 hours ago, bartelbe said:

The trouble is no-one bothers to talk to the white working classes. They are just stereotyped by upper middle class Oxbridge types in the media, who haven't got a clue.

Most of my family is white working class and according to the media they don't exist. By that I mean my relatives are care workers, cleaners and work in child care. All jobs that apparently British people don't want to do, which makes s**t pay and conditions OK for some reason.

My family generally oppose immigration but don't dislike immigrants. I know that will blow the mind of middle class people, the flatcap wearing masses aren't suppose to be able to do nuance and complexity.

My uncle, who worked in steel mills and then various factory production lines, before he retired; put it best. After new member workers were let in, a lot of Poles emigrated to his home town. He actually admired their work ethic but he couldn't compete with them. He had a family to support, he couldn't compete with immigrants who were living 6 to a bedsit. They could accept worse pay than him and work more anti-social hours than he could.

These were real issues for working class people, white and yes, non-white. Having middle class leftwingers scream racist at them when they raised their concerns about the effects of immigration and free movement was neither the way to win their vote or persuade them immigration was actually a good thing.

We could file this waffle under 'I'm not a racist but...'

[skinnylattej]

21 hours ago, markyh said:

True, there's a few people in London and surrey too i believe. 

Sure as hell there's only one in Cornwall!

And he's only got hat he has because of his mother!

[zugzwang]

17 hours ago, gp_ said:

If it was true, surely the leave campaign would have played along with it? You really think Nigel Farage went out of his way to say something the voters did not want to hear when he could just have kept quite about it? Where is the backlash against increasing non-EU immigration?

 

You certainly won't find it articulated by the right wing press whose non dom billionaire owners love this country so much they file their taxes in Bermuda.

Nor from Fartrage, the washed up former commodities trader now pushing his stock tips through YouTube.

Nor indeed, from any Leave agency associated with the international financial elite in the City of London.

Brexit has given them what they've always wanted: the unchallenged free movement of capital, trade and labour. Talking about immigration was just a means to an end - a gaslighting mechansim for disguising their true globalist intentions. The East Europeans will simply be replaced by some other cohort from elsewhere.