skinnylattej Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 11 hours ago, satsuma said: I see BJ has directed police forces to record anything with a sniff of misogyny as a hate crime. Now, I am wondering what training coppers will get on this and also how many of them will just pack the job due to dispair over pointless form filling. Will it be a hate crime if you for example stop to help a woman change a flat tyre? Next day there will be a knock on the door “it has come to our attention, bla bla”. What about holding a door open? Certainly must be a hate crime. What about hiring a staff member, the lucky candidate is in possession of a illicit Male reproductive organ, clearly a hate crime, there must have been foul play. Friend of mine is high up in social services, and always suggests extreme caution, e.g. if you hear screaming from a house, don't go in. If an assault occurs in public don't intervene, wait for the Police to arrive, which in rural area can take ages. Basically the advice is whatever happens don't get involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 13 hours ago, iamnumerate said: What was the full tweet? The metro reported https://metro.co.uk/2017/08/23/mp-shares-tweet-saying-abuse-victims-should-shut-their-mouths-for-good-of-diversity-6872181/ Sorry, I don't have a copy of the original tweet. Clearly, the courts accepted Naz Shah's account of events. Why continue to dispute it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANG Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 3 hours ago, skinnylattej said: Friend of mine is high up in social services, and always suggests extreme caution, e.g. if you hear screaming from a house, don't go in. If an assault occurs in public don't intervene, wait for the Police to arrive, which in rural area can take ages. Basically the advice is whatever happens don't get involved. I think if I saw a member of the public or a police officer being seriously assaulted or attacked I would consider trying to intervene and help them however after seeing this I'm not so sure now. 5 Reasons Not to Help the Police in a Fight - YouTube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 46 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Sorry, I don't have a copy of the original tweet. Clearly, the courts accepted Naz Shah's account of events. Why continue to dispute it? I think the content of the original tweet is exactly how the Metro reported it. However leave.eu added to the original tweet in a meme calling her directly a grooming gang apologist and that is what they got sued for (the legal case was not directly to do with the original tweet). That is how I interpret the independent article you shared anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former postman Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Leave. EU, not satisfied with just winning the brexit, have morphed into a barrel scraping, racist account who target black and brown people in power, daily, with far right smears. I follow them on twitter for the sole purpose of reporting all of their tweets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 18 minutes ago, reddog said: I think the content of the original tweet is exactly how the Metro reported it. However leave.eu added to the original tweet in a meme calling her directly a grooming gang apologist and that is what they got sued for (the legal case was not directly to do with the original tweet). That is how I interpret the independent article you shared anyway. Thanks for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Orange Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) What will when brazen vigilante incidents like the bike thieves getting run down by a vengeful owner becomes too numerous to charge effectively? I knew a bike owner from a few years ago, he often said the police and courts were mostly hopeless at punishing criminals stealing bikes (so I had a feeling this sort of brazen, irrational action would occur eventually). Vigilantes cannot be rationally condoned, but they often ARE the symptom/result of a vacuum forming in law and order. Edited March 19, 2021 by Big Orange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnylattej Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 But if some-one is rude on Twatter, the Police will have a team of 10 on the case immediately. I'm in two minds about vigilantes, they are local, immediate and effective, whereas the Police are unaccountable, remote, expensive, and pick and choose which laws they enforce and where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Orange Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 Yeah, but what if that angry dude ran down an innocent pedestrian, etc, chasing after the perps who stole his bike? And self styled paedophile hunters inevitably eventually end up ruining the lives of misfit men through social media doxing. I can understand the genuine widespread growing rage at thugs and criminals not properly dealt with by UK police, courts, and prisons, though vigilantism becoming a weekly occurance is a sign of things going wrong and what happens in terminally failing states like South Africa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 MPs and peers call on Priti Patel to lift lockdown ban on protests (msn.com) I considered joining the protests today but they were too small to be effective, and anyway, I probably would have been arrested before I got there as they would have been using ANPR to identify cars more than a few miles from home . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 On 20/03/2021 at 04:47, skinnylattej said: But if some-one is rude on Twatter, the Police will have a team of 10 on the case immediately. I'm in two minds about vigilantes, they are local, immediate and effective, whereas the Police are unaccountable, remote, expensive, and pick and choose which laws they enforce and where. Given that Twitter is full of of people being rude to each other, the entire police force must do nothing but follow up on such cases. Or do you mean that there have been a handful of potentially egregious examples of the police over-interpreting their powers? Well, luckily we have a jury system so the twelve of the jury can throw out absurd cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 We are now imprisoned on this wretched Brexit island by our ultra authoritarian government under the pretext of keeping us safe. Is imprisonment the only was to keep us safe? Because I'd rather take my chances and I'm in the 70+ group. COVID-19: Calls for UK government to allow foreign travel, as scientists warn of dangers from Europe's third wave | UK News | Sky News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 On 17/03/2021 at 18:56, FANG said: Apparently this is the Shadow minister for community cohesion. Only come across this today, but my reading of it is that it is intended as sarcastic/satirical comment. I know sarcasm sometimes fails in print, but that looked totally sarcastic, even before finding out that it was in response to a satirical answer. What is sad is that she felt that she had to delete it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 On 17/03/2021 at 20:58, satsuma said: Will it be a hate crime if you for example stop to help a woman change a flat tyre? What about holding a door open? Certainly must be a hate crime. What about hiring a staff member, the lucky candidate is in possession of a illicit Male reproductive organ The answer to all three is "no". I know you weren't being serious, but people do struggle to come up with genuine scenarios so come up with absurd ones instead and try to suggest that this is reality, when it clearly isn't. What about pinching that girl in account's bottom? Might get you arrested if she went to the police. What about saying thank you for her hard work by giving her an uninvited shoulder massage? The police probably won't prosecute, but HR may sack you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANG Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 Not exactly a vigilante but a normal bloke who had the balls to stand up to these lawless *****s Wingate fire: Ex-marine's home destroyed 'after standing up to yobs' - BBC News I also see so many catalytic convertors being removed from cars by armed criminals, would you confront them if it was your car or just let them get on with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A17 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 On 19/03/2021 at 17:42, Big Orange said: What will when brazen vigilante incidents like the bike thieves getting run down by a vengeful owner becomes too numerous to charge effectively? I knew a bike owner from a few years ago, he often said the police and courts were mostly hopeless at punishing criminals stealing bikes (so I had a feeling this sort of brazen, irrational action would occur eventually). Vigilantes cannot be rationally condoned, but they often ARE the symptom/result of a vacuum forming in law and order. The keystone of a modern society is the rule of law, and the government monopoly on enforcing it. If you are wronged in the UK, the traditional belief is that the police and courts can investigate, and if it is proven, the instigator will be punished. However, as an individual, you do not have the right to punish others. However, in the UK now it is very rare for instigators to be punished or suffer consequences at from the government, but as an individual you still do not have the right to seek direct retribution against those who have wronged you. So naturally, people are starting to take matters into their own hands, such as the video above. Another symptom of this is politicians breaking the rules when they should be setting an example, but receiving no consequences. The extreme end of this will be forming of clans of people banding together to protect their property, administrating their own form of justice. The police and courts lack the resources to enforce the laws, but the real trouble will be when they lack the resources to enforce the laws on those who enforce their own laws. I think this may be part of the reason the police crack down so hard on generally normal people who take matters into their own hands. It is easier to let the troublemakers run free and concentrate resources on keeping the 99% normal people scared of police retribution, than make an attempt at sorting out the troublemakers but allowing vigilantes and people who snap to get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnylattej Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 4 hours ago, Ah-so said: Given that Twitter is full of of people being rude to each other, the entire police force must do nothing but follow up on such cases. Or do you mean that there have been a handful of potentially egregious examples of the police over-interpreting their powers? Well, luckily we have a jury system so the twelve of the jury can throw out absurd cases. I apologise for not being clearer, I meant the latter case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 (edited) On 18/03/2021 at 10:40, zugzwang said: Sorry, I don't have a copy of the original tweet. Clearly, the courts accepted Naz Shah's account of events. Why continue to dispute it? That's the danger of twitter and tweets. Dan Hodges is having that problem today - respond in annoyance or anger in a split second following a misunderstanding and you become a minor twitter hate figure for the day! The problem of course in all this is subjectivity. Your opinion or assumption or your 'feelings' - not a measurable fact with evidence. If someone murders, rapes or violently assaults someone isn't it always a 'hate crime' cos to do that to anyone is pretty hateful - why give an appalling crimes with the same impact on the victim a somehow different or higher status with a higher sentence? A few days ago a young 18 year old kid was murdered in east London because someone wanted to steal a designer jacket from him - is his life and death somehow seen as less important because he was killed based apparently on what he was wearing or because of an item of property he owned rather than his personal characteristics. I doubt his mother is grieving less because it won't be classified as a 'hate crime' - in someways its arguably even harder to come to terms with as it was all over an item of clothing. How about we treat all murders, rapes and violent attacks - equally - based on the actual crime committed as they are all pretty hateful! The criminal and legal system has to focus on facts - not subjective 'feelings'. Edited March 21, 2021 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 27 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said: How about we treat all murders, rapes and violent attacks - equally - based on the actual crime committed as they are all pretty hateful! The criminal and legal system has to focus on facts - not subjective 'feelings'. Absolutely. The accusation that Naz Shah is an apologist for grooming gangs was tested in court. She was found not guilty and her accusers (LeaveUK) were obliged to make a grovelling apology, explicitly acknowledging their wrongdoing while paying her damages and the court's costs. There the matter should be left to rest. Except the tweet is periodically resurrected and used as ammunition against Corbyn/the Labour Party/the Left generally. A potentially costly mistake were Naz Shah or her lawyers to learn of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 2 hours ago, skinnylattej said: I apologise for not being clearer, I meant the latter case. Cool. So I'm unlikely to be arrested for holding a door open or being rude on Twitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 1 hour ago, MARTINX9 said: That's the danger of twitter and tweets. Dan Hodges is having that problem today - respond in annoyance or anger in a split second following a misunderstanding and you become a minor twitter hate figure for the day! The problem of course in all this is subjectivity. Your opinion or assumption or your 'feelings' - not a measurable fact with evidence. If someone murders, rapes or violently assaults someone isn't it always a 'hate crime' cos to do that to anyone is pretty hateful - why give an appalling crimes with the same impact on the victim a somehow different or higher status with a higher sentence? A few days ago a young 18 year old kid was murdered in east London because someone wanted to steal a designer jacket from him - is his life and death somehow seen as less important because he was killed based apparently on what he was wearing or because of an item of property he owned rather than his personal characteristics. I doubt his mother is grieving less because it won't be classified as a 'hate crime' - in someways its arguably even harder to come to terms with as it was all over an item of clothing. How about we treat all murders, rapes and violent attacks - equally - based on the actual crime committed as they are all pretty hateful! The criminal and legal system has to focus on facts - not subjective 'feelings'. Sounds a good idea. I don't understand how anyone can think a tweet telling victims to keep quiet is funny. I don't use twitter so maybe I am missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 1 hour ago, MARTINX9 said: That's the danger of twitter and tweets. Dan Hodges is having that problem today - respond in annoyance or anger in a split second following a misunderstanding and you become a minor twitter hate figure for the day! The problem of course in all this is subjectivity. Your opinion or assumption or your 'feelings' - not a measurable fact with evidence. If someone murders, rapes or violently assaults someone isn't it always a 'hate crime' cos to do that to anyone is pretty hateful - why give an appalling crimes with the same impact on the victim a somehow different or higher status with a higher sentence? A few days ago a young 18 year old kid was murdered in east London because someone wanted to steal a designer jacket from him - is his life and death somehow seen as less important because he was killed based apparently on what he was wearing or because of an item of property he owned rather than his personal characteristics. I doubt his mother is grieving less because it won't be classified as a 'hate crime' - in someways its arguably even harder to come to terms with as it was all over an item of clothing. How about we treat all murders, rapes and violent attacks - equally - based on the actual crime committed as they are all pretty hateful! The criminal and legal system has to focus on facts - not subjective 'feelings'. Sounds a good idea. I don't understand how anyone can think a tweet telling victims to keep quiet is funny. I don't use twitter so maybe I am missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 On 21/03/2021 at 09:25, Ah-so said: The answer to all three is "no". I know you weren't being serious, but people do struggle to come up with genuine scenarios so come up with absurd ones instead and try to suggest that this is reality, when it clearly isn't. What about pinching that girl in account's bottom? Might get you arrested if she went to the police. What about saying thank you for her hard work by giving her an uninvited shoulder massage? The police probably won't prosecute, but HR may sack you. People come up with absurd scenarios because exaggeration for effect is a long-established way of talking. And in any case we're already surrounded by what people would've once called absurd but is now seen as normal (don't have to go back all that far and people would find the level of CCTV coverage that plagues this country as an absurd "don't be ridiculous, it'll never happen" idea). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 On 21/03/2021 at 15:00, MARTINX9 said: How about we treat all murders, rapes and violent attacks - equally - based on the actual crime committed as they are all pretty hateful! The criminal and legal system has to focus on facts - not subjective 'feelings'. It's subjective feelings that make those crimes hateful. Without the emotional aspect they're just things that have happened. Without subjectivity there's no good or bad, desirable or undesirable, hateful or loving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButter Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 On 20/03/2021 at 04:47, skinnylattej said: But if some-one is rude on Twatter, the Police will have a team of 10 on the case immediately. You mean like this? Police who warned man about 'transphobic' tweet acted unlawfully Police officers unlawfully interfered with a man’s right to freedom of expression by turning up at his place of work to speak to him about allegedly “transphobic” tweets, the high court has ruled. Harry Miller, a former police officer who founded the campaign group Fair Cop, said the actions of Humberside police had a “substantial chilling effect” on his right to free speech. Miller, 54, from Lincolnshire, said an officer told him he had not committed a crime, but that his tweeting was being recorded as a “hate incident”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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