Anger is mounting

[A17]

5 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

That was based on the suspicion that far from being woken in the night and heading downstairs to confront an intruder he had sat in a chair waiting for them after several prev break-ins.

If the police had dealt with the initial incidents thoroughly it wouldn't have happened.

 

5 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

His lack of shock or remorse one had died for instance 

Why feel remorse? The burglars wouldn't have had any.

 

5 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

 the fact he shot both burglars while they were fleeing.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

 

5 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

He also had fired on a vehicle in his orchard previously, had his shotgun licence revoked and claimed he'd 'found' the firearm illegally held.

Your home is your castle. What should he have done? Call the police for the umpteenth time?

[iamnumerate]

5 hours ago, A17 said:

If the police had dealt with the initial incidents thoroughly it wouldn't have happened.

 

 

I do agree, there must be a limit to how long the police can fail before people can take the law into their hands.

To be fair to the police it wasn't their fault that these burglars had not been given heavier sentences for previous crimes.

From wikipedia

Quote

Fred Barras, the dead youth, had already been convicted of a total of 29 offences by the time of his death at the age of 16, including seven convictions for theft and six for fraud.[12] He had been sentenced to two months in a young offenders' institution for assaulting a policeman, theft and being drunk and disorderly.

 

[skinnylattej]

9 hours ago, Big Orange said:

Another aspect of Tony Martin that is hard to like or rationalise about is his long, deep association with militant Far Right political movements.

The less protection available from the state means that people will start to look elsewhere for protection.  Both far right and far left will prosper as the state continues to diminish.

 

[skinnylattej]

11 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

That was based on the suspicion that far from being woken in the night and heading downstairs to confront an intruder he had sat in a chair waiting for them after several prev break-ins. His lack of shock or remorse one had died for instance and the fact he shot both burglars while they were fleeing.

There had been previous break-ins and nothing was done.  Had the Police been active then the outcome may have been different.  All humans are equal, but not all lives are equal.  The burglars (and I'm doing this from memory) drove form Notts to Martin's farm.  This was an attack that went wrong, but it was planned, the burglars made an active choice to carry out the burglarly.  In my view if an individual deliberately behaves in such a manner, then their grounds for complain about the result of their behaviour are greatly reduced.

11 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

He also had fired on a vehicle in his orchard previously, had his shotgun licence revoked and claimed he'd 'found' the firearm illegally held.

But The Sun / Mail doesn't care about either of those cases in actual facts so most people believe it was all vindictive CPS.

I do not believe it was a vindictive CPS.  It was a multifactored failure, with the Police having failed Tony Martin at the centre of the failures.

I do not read a newspaper.

[skinnylattej]

6 hours ago, A17 said:

If the police had dealt with the initial incidents thoroughly it wouldn't have happened.

 

Why feel remorse? The burglars wouldn't have had any.

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

 

Your home is your castle. What should he have done? Call the police for the umpteenth time?

Brilliant post, thank you

[Riedquat]

10 hours ago, Trampa501 said:

It does feel as though basic freedoms are being whittled away. By the time the majority realise what's happened, it will be too late.

They'll realise, they just couldn't care less. Institutionalised.

[Bruce Banner]

10 hours ago, scottbeard said:

If it's that wretched why don't you just go and never come back?  There's no ban on emigration, just holidays.

The problem is you might be willing to take the risk, but the people that you put at risk by going overseas and coming back have no say in the matter.  All you're being asked to do is go on holiday in June instead of April/May.

Coming back is another matter, there are costly and inconvenient measures in place to cover that, but I'm talking about not being allowed to leave which is unacceptable. 

Why do people confuse "asked" with told?

Edited March 24, 2021 by Bruce Banner

[Staffsknot]

8 hours ago, A17 said:

Why feel remorse? The burglars wouldn't have had any.

 

Because the average human being does even when they feel their actions are justified. Happens with squaddies even after you've just killed someone.

The response is generally shock not satisfaction - one of the marks of psychopaths is complete lack of empathy for the victim.

Your response speaks volumes of someone who has never actually shot anyone. I have and you are talking rubbish as a keyboard warrior.

He was allowed to use reasonable force to defend himself, slotting someone running away does not meet that criteria. Including the military - Paratrooper Lee Clegg was sentenced as the fatal shot was adjudged to have come from the rear of the vehicle, they tried to cover up the fact they continued to fire after the vehicle had sped through the checkpoint and ceased to be a threat. It was only that re-examination suggests the fatal shot may have been from side on that got him exonerated - they still broke the rules of engagement by continuing to fire and why it was still being held up as how to f**k up and go to jail when we were training.

Now if a soldier manning a checkpoint goes to jail shooting someone fleeing please explain how you can argue that a homeowner shouldn't. Its not a Michael Winner film. His far right links are a moot point you judge whether he had laid an ambush, he didn't know the burglars would be travellers.

He was let down by a police force failing to catch the culprits, but they were probably also busy dealing with all the other numpties they have to deal with over the course of a week such as the drunks fighting in city centres, people who can't stick to a speed limit or use mobiles, etc while driving and a host of other time sapping jobs too and sadly rural crime is something they struggle to get a grip on. Unlike the Yanks it doesn't give you any right to slot someone on your front lawn.

The CPS was right to prosecute him and if you actually apply the law without fear or favour he probably should still be inside. 

Now as for play stupid games, win stupid prizes - so found a shotgun, didn't inform the police and retained even though had lost shotgun licence for reckless use of a previous firearm... not the wholesome scared farmer he portrayed, and the CPS believed the weapon was acquired for the purpose not found, they just couldn't pin it.

[crescent]

Most of these people just students who have never lived in  the real world of work.

They just love a protest it makes them feel important they are the same people who protest about BLM Brexit et al.

In a few months the same children will be protesting about something else and patting themselves on the back.

Those who are stupid enough to have committed an offence and get convicted have just greatly reduced their life chances many employers will not employ anyone with a criminal record and some lenders will not even give a mortgage to a person  with a criminal record

[crescent]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:54 PM, debtlessmanc said:

There was a young girl (16) murdered in wales last week. lived In a chinese takeaway. The perpetrator a 31 year old male was also caught immediately. No protests?

No because the students were not to.d top protest on  FB and twitter

[Big Orange]

5 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

Because the average human being does even when they feel their actions are justified. Happens with squaddies even after you've just killed someone.

The response is generally shock not satisfaction - one of the marks of psychopaths is complete lack of empathy for the victim.

Your response speaks volumes of someone who has never actually shot anyone. I have and you are talking rubbish as a keyboard warrior.

 

Lax policing and those Travellers being chronic re-offenders in the area contributed to the situation where a sociopath like Tony Martin felt threatened and justified.

The UK police and courts should de-escalate or prevent violent feuds, not let them fester for months/years only to ignite one night - Tony Martin broke the law and murdered a youth, but the police and courts are still partially to blame.

What charges would've Emily Jones' father or other bystander face, if they understandibly bashed out Eltiona Skana's skull against a concrete path? And Eltiona was allowed out into the public by the UK courts, despite being deemed a ticking time bomb by mental health service.

[Staffsknot]

16 hours ago, Big Orange said:

What charges would've Emily Jones' father or other bystander face, if they understandibly bashed out Eltiona Skana's skull against a concrete path

Well you are chucking out whatabouttery as the discussion was Tony Martin but if you have to ask -

Justified if in the immediate act of trying to protect / save the life. Unjustified if you run ten blocks after them and they sit down giving up waiting for the police or you find their home address and plan an ambush.

Its the difference between in the moment and revenge.

Now courts, policing and mental health services have been getting hit repeatedly by lack of funding but that is another matter.

Prosecutions are dropped where evidence is insufficient, there's what you think and what you can prove in a court of law. Then there are legal technicalities which if everything isn't done to the letter offer an easy out - again note the loopholes used for various celebs to escape motoring offences.

Now lets chuck in one final thought - the 20x20 vision of the apparent populace - that if memory serves would have gone after a victims landlord not the actual perpetrator because he looked a bit odd, who berated the police for letting him walk about then quietly forgot they'd said that after ruining said individual's life. Mob justice and hindsight heroes are of zero use.

[scottbeard]

On 24/03/2021 at 10:05, Bruce Banner said:

Why do people confuse "asked" with told?

I can't speak for all people and all times...but in my case and in relation to this specific issue it's because there is no functional difference to me between being ASKED not to go abroad and being TOLD not to - either way I won't go.

Same as the "rule of six" that comes back next week...I have no idea whether that's an actual law or not but it doesn't really matter since I will abide by it. 

In both cases not just because "the government say so" like Simon Says but because I understand why they are doing this, and it makes sense.

I realize that to those who probably prize individual liberty higher than I do, perhaps like yourself, it is a bigger deal.  But that's the answer in my case.

[Bruce Banner]

50 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

I can't speak for all people and all times...but in my case and in relation to this specific issue it's because there is no functional difference to me between being ASKED not to go abroad and being TOLD not to - either way I won't go.

Same as the "rule of six" that comes back next week...I have no idea whether that's an actual law or not but it doesn't really matter since I will abide by it. 

In both cases not just because "the government say so" like Simon Says but because I understand why they are doing this, and it makes sense.

I realize that to those who probably prize individual liberty higher than I do, perhaps like yourself, it is a bigger deal.  But that's the answer in my case.

Generally, if someone politely asks me to do something I will do my best to comply, but if they tell me to do something I will, on principle, do my best to resist. 

As for banning leaving the country with threats of a £5,000 fine, why is this necessary, when they could say "Leave the country by all means if another country will have you, but be aware that when you return you may be required to pay for tests and secure accommodation whilst in quarantine".

And yes, individual liberty is very important to me.

 

[Riedquat]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Generally, if someone politely asks me to do something I will do my best to comply, but if they tell me to do something I will, on principle, do my best to resist.

I'm telling you to criticise Boris Johnson!

Joking aside, couldn't agree more with your post (not just the bit I quoted). I find it rather shocking how many people don't even see the issue.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Riedquat

[scottbeard]

17 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Joking aside, couldn't agree more with your post (not just the bit I quoted). I find it rather shocking how many people don't even see the issue.

In the middle of a 1 in 100 year pandemic, I don't see an issue.

That doesn't generalize to all circumstances, by any means.

[Bruce Banner]

28 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

In the middle of a 1 in 100 year pandemic, I don't see an issue.

That doesn't generalize to all circumstances, by any means.

I always see an issue with the blanket justification that "The end justifies the means".

[dryrot]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but anyway:

No police broken bones (or punctured lungs) apparently. That's great news, of course, but makes the earlier reporting, er, suspect?

https://leftfootforward.org/2021/03/bristol-broken-bones-claim-is-latest-in-long-line-of-police-disinformation/?mc_cid=17db2c799c&mc_eid=3aee583f35

Describing it as "the biggest digital investigation Avon and Somerset Police has faced". He also thanked the public for their help so far. On the injuries officers recieved, there were no broken bones or a punctured lung as previously reported......

[Big Orange]

7 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

 

Now courts, policing and mental health services have been getting hit repeatedly by lack of funding but that is another matter.

 

That feeds into the growing lack of belief in the UK's system and slow escalation in lawlessness, when zealous cost saving eats away at Rule Of Law - the Philippines descended into a killing rampage because its courts ceased functioning and backlogged (heck in every crushingly poor nation or failed state, it's Mad Max law).

And of course the wrong people can often be strung up, pilloried, or chased out of town, but every Third World community ends up depending on that form of informal enforcement.

We'll see regular street justice in America soon enough (it's got previous) and any advanced nation's populace has got a breaking point.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, Big Orange said:

That feeds into the growing lack of belief in the UK's system and slow escalation in lawlessness, when zealous cost saving eats away at Rule Of Law - the Philippines descended into a killing rampage because its courts ceased functioning and backlogged (heck in every crushingly poor nation or failed state, it's Mad Max law).

Not just cost saving - a zealous, arrogant self-belief in the law and policing destroys trust. When it's unwilling to question itself, when it's blind "We're automatically right and therefore anyone who comes in to conflict with us must be wrong" the system is dangerously broken.

[A.steve]

On 24/03/2021 at 10:05, Bruce Banner said:

Why do people confuse "asked" with told?

Is it because they are incapable of rational thought and stumble from one ignorant, inappropriately emotional, response to another... and fail to grasp any non-trivial concept as a consequence?

Another possibility is that manipulative people often use asking as a euphemism for telling. It blurs the lines and deflects questions about whether or not they are entitled or qualified to "tell" people to do anything in the first place?

Edited March 25, 2021 by A.steve

[Big Orange]

6 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Not just cost saving - a zealous, arrogant self-belief in the law and policing destroys trust. When it's unwilling to question itself, when it's blind "We're automatically right and therefore anyone who comes in to conflict with us must be wrong" the system is dangerously broken.

An arrogant "We know best!" while there's a popular perception relatively innocent people can be gravely prosecuted (while career criminals and psychopaths get a slap on the wrist or even ignored) fuels resentment and dissent amongst law abiding (why support a system that offers few guarantees?).

Courts, rehabilitation, and prison is on principle more preferable to neighborhood strongmen or/and the mob, but when people think they're preferable to a system , then something has gone wrong.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Big Orange

[A17]

1 hour ago, Big Orange said:

An arrogant "We know best!" while there's a popular perception relatively innocent people can be gravely prosecuted (while career criminals and psychopaths get a slap on the wrist or even ignored) fuels resentment and dissent amongst law abiding (why support a system that offers few guarantees?).

The example of travelers. Whenever they turn up everybody knows that there will be trouble. However, the police confronting them leads to more difficulties than letting them be, knowing that they will probably clear off in a week or so and become somebody else's problem. However, it doesn't give the ordinary person any faith in the system.

 

8 hours ago, Big Orange said:

That feeds into the growing lack of belief in the UK's system and slow escalation in lawlessness, when zealous cost saving eats away at Rule Of Law - the Philippines descended into a killing rampage because its courts ceased functioning and backlogged (heck in every crushingly poor nation or failed state, it's Mad Max law).

And of course the wrong people can often be strung up, pilloried, or chased out of town, but every Third World community ends up depending on that form of informal enforcement.

We'll see regular street justice in America soon enough (it's got previous) and any advanced nation's populace has got a breaking point.

Stand-your-ground laws and the second amendment act as a somewhat safety valve to the general population in the USA. And the cops are the opposite to the UK - instead of turning up hours later to give you a crime reference number, they will turn up quickly and open fire. No middle ground. 

[satsuma]

5 hours ago, A17 said:

The example of travelers. Whenever they turn up everybody knows that there will be trouble. However, the police confronting them leads to more difficulties than letting them be, knowing that they will probably clear off in a week or so and become somebody else's problem. However, it doesn't give the ordinary person any faith in the system.

 

Stand-your-ground laws and the second amendment act as a somewhat safety valve to the general population in the USA. And the cops are the opposite to the UK - instead of turning up hours later to give you a crime reference number, they will turn up quickly and open fire. No middle ground. 

I do sometimes think the US situation is just simply due to the gun lobby, a mixture of people who believe in the right to bear arms due to their colonial past but those are the few.  I believe most want guns because it’s so unsafe and there are too many armed and dangerous others.  As for the police, I find it strange that people question why they shoot first in a country so full of weapons.  

[The Spaniard]

On 24/03/2021 at 11:48, Staffsknot said:

Because the average human being does even when they feel their actions are justified. Happens with squaddies even after you've just killed someone.

This movie clip illustrates such psychological damage well IMO.

PTSD among ex-service personnel is probably at least partially caused by their experience of intentional killing.