Will Russia invade Ukraine and what happens if it escalates with NATO/US getting involved

[Staffsknot]

2 hours ago, Si1 said:

@Staffsknot 

Further debate about the Russian POW deaths is that a dozen Russians were being taken prisoner by 4 UAF. That last Russian that came out and opened fire killed or injured three of the UAF and the last UAF not hit was the guy lying down with the machine gun, and he as the last man seems to have then shot all the Russians dead. It's suggested that he felt he had no chance of taking the surrender on his own so he killed them to try and save him and his buddies.

It's thought out of the three hit Ukrainians, one died (the cameraman) and two made it to hospital and survived.

Nope that's a war crime and probably being made up now.

You don't get to say sorry I've changed my mind and slot them. If that is the case he is due jailtime. No ifs, no buts he deliberately executed PoWs.

So again this sounds like either people who are clueless making stuff up or a deliberate war crime if accurate.

[Staffsknot]

31 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

If that is the case then I can understand why the remaining UAF soldier did what he did. I certainly wouldn't want to be in his position if this was the case, too risky. He could also not be certain that another Russian shooter would not pop out and do the same.

At the end of the day, I agree with @Staffsknot, an inquiry is needed. Abide by the process.

Nope its an open and shut war crime if that's what happened.

Sounds made up to me - 4 men operating in complete isolation? Nope. 

Next up just because you are outnumbered doesn't mean you can execute prisoners. Its not the Middle Ages.

If true he deserves jailtime. 

[satsuma]

I have previously said the Russians need to surrender in good order during daylight to avoid unfortunate incidents, please can this be passed on.  Failure to do so will be tragic, puling a gun during surrender is a very bad idea

[IMHAL]

21 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Nope its an open and shut war crime if that's what happened.

Sounds made up to me - 4 men operating in complete isolation? Nope. 

Next up just because you are outnumbered doesn't mean you can execute prisoners. Its not the Middle Ages.

If true he deserves jailtime. 

I really don't claim to know the in's and out's of warfare. From an uninitiated and uneducated position the reaction of the UAF soldier would be also be my gut reaction. One against many with much uncertainty. My life would be at risk

All this with the disclaimer that alot would depend on what happened after the shooter was shot. Did the men on the ground make any moves that suggested that it was a trap? Or did they lie still etc.... That is why, as you have suggested an investigation is needed. No point speculating till that happens.

It's not cut an dry until the full facts are established.

[IMHAL]

46 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Except what @Staffsknot told everyone is bullshite. Ukraine forces followed procedure. Look at my tweet posted above. 

I do agree with @Staffsknot that it does need to be investigated. The facts will then speak for themselves.

I for one cannot even comprehend the extreem pressures that combatants go through to make these split second decisions, nor do I want to. 

[Grayphil]

1 hour ago, Staffsknot said:

Nope its an open and shut war crime if that's what happened.

Sounds made up to me - 4 men operating in complete isolation? Nope. 

Next up just because you are outnumbered doesn't mean you can execute prisoners. Its not the Middle Ages.

If true he deserves jailtime. 

I have spent a few weeks trying to understand the intricacies of war crimes, I have no military background whatsoever, but I have definitely learned that i had many preconceptions that were entirely incorrect as to what constitutes a war crime and what is essentially allowed.

There are also so many blurred lines that will take years of trial to separate right from wrong.

 

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

2 hours ago, IMHAL said:

I do agree with @Staffsknot that it does need to be investigated. The facts will then speak for themselves.

I for one cannot even comprehend the extreem pressures that combatants go through to make these split second decisions, nor do I want to. 

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be investigated. Of course it should. I’m saying what @Staffsknot stated about surrender procedure is bullshite. 

[Si1]

6 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

 a deliberate war crime if accurate.

I didn't say it wasn't.

Nevertheless I can see why he did it. People make bad split second decisions based on their reptile instincts (and don't forget he was probably a civilian not long ago with no aspirations whatsoever to ever go to war)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Si1

[Si1]

7 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

You know nothing and your lies exposing you as a fraud are building up: 

 

Gotta be said, there are some experienced military types who you'd think would know as much as @Staffsknotsaying it is not a warcrime.

Obviously it should be properly investigated.

one other thing, the UAF soldiers seemed relaxed and cocky, probably due to tiredness, overfamiliarity with war, stress, adrenaline etc. If a small number of them were taking the surrender of a larger number of Russians then one shouldn't have been filming, the other shouldn't have had his back to the Russians like that. I've seen other videos taking surrenders and all the UAF soldiers had their rifles in position and aimed just incase. In this case they weren't. 

and another thing, these UAF guys were probably civilians 6-12 months ago and likely weren't the types of people ever to expect to be in a war situation like this, they might even have failed normal military selection procedures. They've been thrust into a horrifying situation and quite plausibly f#cked up owing to a host of factors. They may never have wanted to hold a gun in their whole life and then found themselves here. May never have given a moment's thought to being a soldier their whole lives. I have similar sympathies for Russian conscripts

Edited November 19, 2022 by Si1

[Si1]

5 hours ago, IMHAL said:

I really don't claim to know the in's and out's of warfare. From an uninitiated and uneducated position the reaction of the UAF soldier would be also be my gut reaction. One against many with much uncertainty. My life would be at risk

 

 

Yeah my feelings too. And he's probably not a professional soldier either. Lorry driver? Warehouse picker? Council officer? Ice-cream man? Shop assistant? Environmental health officer? We don't know.

 

[Si1]

6 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

 

Sounds made up to me - 4 men operating in complete isolation? Nope. 

 

How do you know they couldn't be operating in relative isolation? I.e. the rest of their unit not in the immediate vicinity with them? (By accident, c0cked up, whatever; these could be not fully trained soldiers)

If they do get a white flag in that circumstance, what are they supposed to do.

Be more professional, sure, they looked too relaxed. But apart from that what. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Si1

[Peter Hun]

10 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

The camera guy was hit and killed. 

According to an earlier video,  the Russians were killed by a 120mm motar 

[Peter Hun]

2 hours ago, Si1 said:

Gotta be said, there are some experienced military types who you'd think would know as much as @Staffsknotsaying it is not a warcrime.

Obviously Staffsknot knows better because he has not watched the video, which does show what happened in any case.

[Peter Hun]

56 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

which does NOT show what happened in any case.

 

[Si1]

1 hour ago, Peter Hun said:

According to an earlier video,  the Russians were killed by a 120mm motar 

Sounds like a hail of machine gun fire on the main video. But heh. Blimey.

[jonb2]

15 hours ago, rollover said:

The Guardian is reporting it as:

"evidence of massive execution inflicted by Ukrainian servicemen on the unarmed Russian prisoners of war"

No, they quoting the Russian Defence Ministry's words.

The Russian ministry of defence has vowed that Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy will eventually stand trial for war crimes. In a statement about a video that has emerged which appears to show Russian soldiers being shot by Ukrainian forces, the ministry says:

New videographic evidence of massive execution inflicted by Ukrainian servicemen on the unarmed Russian prisoners of war confirms the atrocious nature of the current Kyiv regime led by Zelenskiy and those who protect and support him.

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian servicemen, who surrendered this week, are held in accordance with all the requirements of the Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war.

The brutal murder of the Russian servicemen is neither the first, nor the single war crime. This is a common practice in the armed forces of Ukraine that is actively supported by the Kyiv regime and straightforwardly ignored by its western patrons.

But Zelenskiy and his henchmen will be forced to stand trial of the court of history, peoples of Russia and Ukraine, for everyone, and for each tortured and murdered prisoner.

Earlier this week UN human rights monitor OHCHR in Ukraine accused both sides of violating the rights of prisoners of wars, saying:

So far, OHCHR has interviewed 159 POWs (139 men and 20 women) held by the Russian Federation (including by affiliated armed groups), and 175 POWs (all men) held by Ukraine.

OHCHR has identified patterns of torture and ill-treatment of POWs held by the Russian Federation (including by affiliated armed groups), particularly during internment. OHCHR has also documented violations committed by Ukrainian state agents towards POWs, which revealed a pattern of ill-treatment at initial stages of capture and evacuation, and sporadic cases of torture and ill-treatment at later stages of internment.

 

[rollover]

... what a hypocrite, init?

James Cleverly say: Iran poses a threat to the Middle East before watching its soccer team take on England at the World Cup. If the UK and the US is ‘spreading bloodshed’, supplies weapons that are killing civilians and threaten the entire regions everything is nice and rosy, ... but ...

UK foreign minister warns Iran ‘spreading bloodshed’ from Mideast to Kyiv

Britain’s foreign minister on Saturday hit out at Iran for “spreading bloodshed” and vowed to work with allies to counter Tehran as he addressed leaders in Bahrain.

Ukraine and its Western allies have accused Iran of supplying Russia with drones that they say Moscow has used in recent weeks to carry out attacks in Ukraine.

“The regime has resorted to selling Russia the armed drones that are killing civilians in Ukraine”.

timesofisrael

before watching its soccer team take on England at the World Cup

[mynamehere]

19 minutes ago, rollover said:

... what a hypocrite, init?

James Cleverly say: Iran poses a threat to the Middle East before watching its soccer team take on England at the World Cup. If the UK and the US is ‘spreading bloodshed’, supplies weapons that are killing civilians and threaten the entire regions everything is nice and rosy, ... but ...

UK foreign minister warns Iran ‘spreading bloodshed’ from Mideast to Kyiv

Britain’s foreign minister on Saturday hit out at Iran for “spreading bloodshed” and vowed to work with allies to counter Tehran as he addressed leaders in Bahrain.

Ukraine and its Western allies have accused Iran of supplying Russia with drones that they say Moscow has used in recent weeks to carry out attacks in Ukraine.“The regime has resorted to selling Russia the armed drones that are killing civilians in Ukraine”.timesofisrael

before watching its
soccer team take on England at the World Cup

I don't really understand your boner for hypocrisy.

It feels a bit like complaining about vegans walking on ants.

Hypocrisy is everywhere, but it's shades of grey, and not always relevant or interesting. 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by mynamehere

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, Si1 said:

Sounds like a hail of machine gun fire on the main video. But heh. Blimey.

Doesn't actually show how they died or who fired.

First video release stated they were killed by a mortar.

Second release claimed they were killed after they attacked the Ukrainian soldiers.

Going to need more evidence to prove what happened.

 

[rollover]

Zelensky rejects the idea of a "short truce" with Russia

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday dismissed the idea of a "short truce" with Russia, arguing it would only make things worse.

"Russia is now looking for a short truce, a respite to regain strength. This could be seen as the end of the war, but such a respite will only make the situation worse," the Ukrainian leader said in remarks broadcast at the forum. international security conference in Halifax, Canada.

tellerreport

[Staffsknot]

6 hours ago, Si1 said:

Gotta be said, there are some experienced military types who you'd think would know as much as @Staffsknotsaying it is not a warcrime.

Obviously it should be properly investigated.

one other thing, the UAF soldiers seemed relaxed and cocky, probably due to tiredness, overfamiliarity with war, stress, adrenaline etc. If a small number of them were taking the surrender of a larger number of Russians then one shouldn't have been filming, the other shouldn't have had his back to the Russians like that. I've seen other videos taking surrenders and all the UAF soldiers had their rifles in position and aimed just incase. In this case they weren't. 

and another thing, these UAF guys were probably civilians 6-12 months ago and likely weren't the types of people ever to expect to be in a war situation like this, they might even have failed normal military selection procedures. They've been thrust into a horrifying situation and quite plausibly f#cked up owing to a host of factors. They may never have wanted to hold a gun in their whole life and then found themselves here. May never have given a moment's thought to being a soldier their whole lives. I have similar sympathies for Russian conscripts

None of those are acceptable excuses and it is encumbent on any military to provide ample training in IHL. No excuses.

The 'military types' are spouting off nonsense. You shoot unarmed surrendered individuals for any of the excuses listed you do jail time.

[Staffsknot]

11 hours ago, IMHAL said:

I do agree with @Staffsknot that it does need to be investigated. The facts will then speak for themselves.

I for one cannot even comprehend the extreem pressures that combatants go through to make these split second decisions, nor do I want to. 

Copper is another cheerleader and I ignored him a long time ago. There is no procedure for excuting unarmed men there is a procedure for protecting surrendered individuals. 

There is also the fact they were filming the surrender - if authorized for military use allowed. If for themselves no mobile phone chalk up another 'procedure' breach.

Copper knows nothing and gets irate if you say UAF do anything not 100% yey that's amazing.

[Staffsknot]

11 hours ago, Grayphil said:

I have spent a few weeks trying to understand the intricacies of war crimes, I have no military background whatsoever, but I have definitely learned that i had many preconceptions that were entirely incorrect as to what constitutes a war crime and what is essentially allowed.

There are also so many blurred lines that will take years of trial to separate right from wrong.

 

Absolutely and every action has to be justified and investigated properly.

Anyone saying oh you can do this its procedure is talking ****** of the highest order.

Just like all these myths of I'm outnumbered so I can shoot prisoners is utter BS. Most prisoner details are outnumbered by the PoWs by a large factor, but they have guns the PoWs don't.

It does nobody any credit to lie that there's some mythical opt outs. But that's what the cheerleader brigade want all the time and why they are best ignored same as Russian cheerleaders.

None of the people commenting have sat through the tedious rules of war videos with 70s porno moustached squaddies acting out these situations, nor run through these scenarios on ex or pre-deploy or done prisoner taking in real life. They are just shouty internet folk doing shouty internet folk things

[Goat]

10 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

The 'military types' are spouting off nonsense. You shoot unarmed surrendered individuals for any of the excuses listed you do jail time.

Question, are they surrendered men, or are they in the process of surrendering, and is there a difference?

Until they've been searched and restrained, there's no way of knowing if they're armed or not, so they're still potential combatants whose status is uncertain, so when one of them attacks, what does that do to the status of the others in the group?

[Si1]

17 minutes ago, Goat said:

Question, are they surrendered men, or are they in the process of surrendering, and is there a difference?

Until they've been searched and restrained, there's no way of knowing if they're armed or not, so they're still potential combatants whose status is uncertain, so when one of them attacks, what does that do to the status of the others in the group?

I think they were in the process and had not been searched yet. Not an expert.