Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[allfiredup]

Sturgeon blaming 'Britons' MP's for delaying Brexit for 3 years

[thehowler]

9 minutes ago, pig said:

You kind of understood it above - just got a bit confused.

Your head recognised the judges couldn't find in favour of the government or democracy would be fecked.  It wouldn't surprise me if half those judges were hesitant but recognised what was at stake.

Your heart is 'Brexit/BJ/Tories'  so they had to find in favour of the government but with er... 'recommendations' to assuage the cognitive dissonance.

He is 'destroying' himself and trying to take the country with him. Perhaps that is the fate of any partisan Brexit.

Heart is more democrat and concerned about the outcome.

If you'd backed and taken my preferred route - May's deal - we'd never have got Boris.

 

[grasshopper]

3 minutes ago, thehowler said:

That is very important. I understand the court decision.

But I think the more important issue is the outcome.

Well, one result may be that we might not need a written constitution if the courts can ensure that parliament, will in all situations be allowed to discharge its duties.

But I presume you are referring  to the particular  problem of Brexit. Yes, a very difficult  time for the country.

 

[thecrashingisles]

16 minutes ago, thehowler said:

He smells Brexit Party votes.

But interesting that he sees advantage in joining in the pile on rather than attacking the judiciary and echoing Johnson's talking points.

[Freki]

11 minutes ago, crouch said:

Why should there be evidence that is available to you? You just don't know; you just make the assumptions to fit your views no less than me. Your views are no less unicorn than mine; the only difference is that I'll admit it but you won't.

Not making it available to our partners either does not seem to trigger any alarm bell to you

[Confusion of VIs]

 

14 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

Even after blocking a GE, going back on 2017 promises, and even some changing parties with no by-elections?

Plus creating new laws. Who knows what new law they would have come up with next!

If you have the votes you are entitled to choose the timing of a GE. Parties go back on promises and MP's change parties all the time. 

Who knows but that what Parliament is there for.

If either May or Boris had put country before party and gone for a soft EEA Brexit we would be out by now. But they didn't, instead they tried and failed to push through a Tory Brexit.

[allfiredup]

Is the courts decision binding or advisory?

[Riedquat]

8 minutes ago, pig said:

Yes, the existence of the rule of law.

The rule of law is very specific about what the law is. The rule of law is not judges making it up to fit what they feel it should be.  If they've not done that then please let's hear the specific legal technicalities. I'm sure that has been considered but I'm finding it concerning that it's more generalities that have been mentioned. Yes, they upheld what the spirit of the system should be but isn't their task the letter, not the spirit? Now I often make the argument that ultimately the spirit of the law is what matters but that needs to be tempered by not letting them make it up as they go along. Hopefully this isn't the entirety of the reasoning, just the result of poor reporting.

Quote

That philosophical blank cheque to excuse any old cr4p is getting a bit tired.

Being worn down by being in constant denial?

[DiggerUK]

As a Labour Party member, I will be knocked senseless if the Party Conference does not receive, and support, an emergency motion for a general election. The tories have a lame duck leader who is washed up, and anyway, which tory would want to take over from Johnson at this moment.

Tactically it would be madness  notto  go in for the kill now. The tories would  face a near wipeout.

Equally stupid would be for Labour to continue dancing round their handbags with a neutral position on brexit till after the election. But as we would only face a threat from the LibDems I see Labour winning..._

[allfiredup]

1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

If you have the votes you are entitled to choose the timing of a GE. Parties go back on promises and MP's change parties all the time. 

Who knows but that what Parliament is there for.

If either May or Boris had put country before party and gone for a soft EEA Brexit we would be out by now. But they didn't, instead they tried and failed to push through a Tory Brexit.

Well they were a joint majority when this all started and would have been entitled to, but so much has changed in parliament since then that surely a GE is essential?

[IMHAL]

7 minutes ago, crouch said:

Why should there be evidence that is available to you? You just don't know; you just make the assumptions to fit your views no less than me. Your views are no less unicorn than mine; the only difference is that I'll admit it but you won't.

Oh...the audacity of asking for plan...how could I be so presumptious....

Jeepers....I'll repeat for the hard of reading... the plans need to be available for scrutiny by an independent for honest appraisal and for scrutiny by the public who are to be the recipients, not just me. That is what responsible, transparent and accountable governments do. 

I think this sort of stuff is lost on you. 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

16 minutes ago, thehowler said:

It won't get through the House. Labour rebel MPs won't back him now - can say they're waiting to see the 2nd ref Labour leave option - and he needs them to stand a chance of passing it.

That's probably true now but I believe he could have got a fudged version of May's deal through if he hadn't backed himself into a corner.

Now I think he is badly weakened and the only way, assuming he survives, he will get a deal through is by agreeing to a confirmatory referendum. 

[crouch]

1 minute ago, Freki said:

Not making it available to our partners either does not seem to trigger any alarm bell to you

The implementation of Brexit is delegated - in part - to government who negotiate trade deals and legislate frameworks.

However, the thing that will decide the success or failure of Brexit is not what plans or forecasts the government produces but the reaction of the millions of economic actors to the changed circumstances over the next thirty years; this above all.

The UK is not the Soviet Union; we do not have a planned economy; we operate on the basis of that quaint system known as free enterprise which is based on a constant iteration between producers and consumers with minimal control from the centre.

[Confusion of VIs]

18 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

The court should have also ordered a GE if they believe MP's debating Brexit is that important

They have no power to order GEs, that a matter for Parliament alone.

[thehowler]

16 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

it was certainly grotesque of him but the reporting I've seen doesn't appear to be concentrating much on precisely what the problem was technically, which I find concerning.

Once they found it justiciable I thought they might go for lawful with some kind of restraint/order, but instead they said the govt had really offered no kind of defence, evidence or compelling argument against the complaint - that the prorogration was extreme and unjustified - and so were bound to conclude it was unlawful. But I need to read the full summary - 22 pages I think.

[pig]

12 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Heart is more democrat and concerned about the outcome.

If you'd backed and taken my preferred route - May's deal - we'd never have got Boris.

 

Well best put your head back on because its also concerned about the outcome.

Just to repeat: if either May or Johnson had tried to go for a non-partisan Brexit we'd be out by now. 

[allfiredup]

2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

They have no power to order GEs, that a matter for Parliament alone.

We need someone to take parliament to court and prove they are illegitimate

[crouch]

1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

Oh...the audacity of asking for plan...how could I be so presumptious....

Jeepers....I'll repeat for the hard of reading... the plans need to be available for scrutiny by an independent for honest appraisal and for scrutiny by the public who are to be the recipients, not just me. That is what responsible, transparent and accountable governments do. 

I think this sort of stuff is lost on you. 

 

My apologies; I thought we were not the Soviet  Union where the economy is planned - tractor production. I have been under the total illusion that we are a free enterprise economy where economic actors make their own decisions and where the market is a constant iteration between millions of producers and consumers, a situation that is beyond planning.

Thank you for putting me right. Comrade.

[longgone]

8 minutes ago, DiggerUK said:

As a Labour Party member, I will be knocked senseless if the Party Conference does not receive, and support, an emergency motion for a general election. The tories have a lame duck leader who is washed up, and anyway, which tory would want to take over from Johnson at this moment.

Tactically it would be madness  notto  go in for the kill now. The tories would  face a near wipeout.

Equally stupid would be for Labour to continue dancing round their handbags with a neutral position on brexit till after the election. But as we would only face a threat from the LibDems I see Labour winning..._

Tax credits boost then and income taxes up. ?

Titanic 2 with blutac over the hole.

[Confusion of VIs]

8 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

Is the courts decision binding or advisory?

Advisory as BJ could take it to the European Court for a definitive verdict. 

That would be amusing

[Bruce Banner]

Bercow on now, live, outside HoC.

[thehowler]

12 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

But interesting that he sees advantage in joining in the pile on rather than attacking the judiciary and echoing Johnson's talking points.

They are all calling for him to resign now. Might be a VONC later this week!

But can Boris still lead the Tories into any future GE?

Let's say we get an interim step-in, like Mr Hunt. He won't commit to leaving by a certain date - we might just need a few more days - and he'll be up against Farage and co.

Shudder.

[thecrashingisles]

2 minutes ago, crouch said:

My apologies; I thought we were not the Soviet  Union where the economy is planned - tractor production. I have been under the total illusion that we are a free enterprise economy where economic actors make their own decisions and where the market is a constant iteration between millions of producers and consumers, a situation that is beyond planning.

Thank you for putting me right. Comrade.

I suppose, being a simpleton, you struggle to escape binary thinking, but there is a difference between central planning of the economy as a whole, and having a plan.

[Freki]

3 minutes ago, crouch said:

My apologies; I thought we were not the Soviet  Union where the economy is planned - tractor production. I have been under the total illusion that we are a free enterprise economy where economic actors make their own decisions and where the market is a constant iteration between millions of producers and consumers, a situation that is beyond planning.

Thank you for putting me right. Comrade.

Everyone just free style with their life, companies, government. Forecasts are unheard of, and anticipation is a communist ideology?

[Bruce Banner]

HoC sitting tomorrow at 11:30 AM.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Bruce Banner