Riedquat Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 That is two different things. Accepting of an idea, new ways of working, new cultural workplace changes, this is something the "common sense" north is a fail on. The north is afraid of change/ideas that deny its history and culture Afraid of, or dislikes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 I was thinking more of the London gateway https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18970869 You may as well have been thinking London, Ontario for all the relevance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 Afraid of, or dislikes? They are just different sides of the same coin, so many times we dislike something because we are afraid of it and it will change our status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itssimple Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Depends how you measure Poor. Everyone's circumstances are different, there is not a cat in hells chance I would prefer been down south. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 They are just different sides of the same coin, so many times we dislike something because we are afraid of it and it will change our status. Not really. I don't like some genres of music but I'm not afraid of them. And I think it's using the word too widely to describe a dislike of a negative change in circumstances that seems to be looming (just talking generally by the way) as "fear." A rather banal example of that would be not looking forward to getting up in the morning and having to deal with a particularly tedious piece of work, but that wouldn't be fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unmoderated Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 The question is the wrong way around imho. The natural state/default with no work being done at all is destitution so the real question is why is London/South East so much richer than other places. London was the biggest city in world for a good chunk of the 19th and 20th C. Success breeds success so more and more people in close proximity make for more exciting places to live and more opportunity for people to specialise in their 'thing'. London seems to attract talent (I'm not a fan of the place - maybe I'm talentless?) so new ideas make things more productive. It's also home to certain industries than are immensely profitable, banking, insurance, software etc. Weather is much better. Driving two or three hours west of Berkshire and it's noticeably cooler and wetter, some people like it here just for that. Infrastructure thrown in on top and you get that reinforced. All roads and railways (mostly in the country) terminate in London like it's the middle of a web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted November 4, 2020 Author Share Posted November 4, 2020 The question is the wrong way around imho. The natural state/default with no work being done at all is destitution so the real question is why is London/South East so much richer than other places. London was the biggest city in world for a good chunk of the 19th and 20th C. Success breeds success so more and more people in close proximity make for more exciting places to live and more opportunity for people to specialise in their 'thing'. London seems to attract talent (I'm not a fan of the place - maybe I'm talentless?) so new ideas make things more productive. It's also home to certain industries than are immensely profitable, banking, insurance, software etc. Weather is much better. Driving two or three hours west of Berkshire and it's noticeably cooler and wetter, some people like it here just for that. Infrastructure thrown in on top and you get that reinforced. All roads and railways (mostly in the country) terminate in London like it's the middle of a web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 You may as well have been thinking London, Ontario for all the relevance. Page 5 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826446/port-freight-statistics-2018.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Page 5 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826446/port-freight-statistics-2018.pdf Page 158 https://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/16n2a5.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 The question is the wrong way around imho. The natural state/default with no work being done at all is destitution so the real question is why is London/South East so much richer than other places. London was the biggest city in world for a good chunk of the 19th and 20th C. Success breeds success so more and more people in close proximity make for more exciting places to live and more opportunity for people to specialise in their 'thing'. London seems to attract talent (I'm not a fan of the place - maybe I'm talentless?) so new ideas make things more productive. It's also home to certain industries than are immensely profitable, banking, insurance, software etc. Weather is much better. Driving two or three hours west of Berkshire and it's noticeably cooler and wetter, some people like it here just for that. Infrastructure thrown in on top and you get that reinforced. All roads and railways (mostly in the country) terminate in London like it's the middle of a web. Yes, its historical geography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Haha, exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Depends how you measure Poor. Everyone's circumstances are different, there is not a cat in hells chance I would prefer been down south. What about if you were rich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itssimple Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 What about if you were rich? Exactly... how do you measure rich. Ps, I lived on a boat for a number of years. So not your average citizen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Exactly... how do you measure rich. Ps, I lived on a boat for a number of years. So not your average citizen. I would love to do that for a time. My girlfriend and I actually did that this year (In the glorious post industrial north). Lucky with the weather but it was glorious! I have a pipe dream of sailing around the med for a few years when i retire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan110_0 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) Monarchy is based in London, all their brown nosed hangers-on who were awarded land titles live there, hence most money from tax funnelled there creating a positive feedback loop. Pretty simple really, best way to level up the north is move the Queen/Kings location (they'll still bring in the tourist money in Manchester ;P). Edited November 4, 2020 by Brendan110_0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itssimple Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 I would love to do that for a time. My girlfriend and I actually did that this year (In the glorious post industrial north). Lucky with the weather but it was glorious! I have a pipe dream of sailing around the med for a few years when i retire. Everyone should have dreams, good luck. If you've not tried the med, and have the certs, go bareboat for a holiday, and talk to as many people as you can while there. Or no certs, you could go on a flotilla holiday. If no certs, you could do evening classes for the theory over winter, it's what I did for a few winters, it works out cheaper, and I think sticks in the mind more. Plus you get to know folk more, with the course been over a longer time frame. Crew for folk if poss at a local club, they will probably be able to recommend best spot for theory. I've not done the med, did not really interest me, just mooched around bits of UK. Soz to others, off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Frais Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 It's not always been so. Back in the industrial revolution days people got paid more in factories than working the land. Northerners were likely richer, on average, then. Since then, production has been exported and the economy is based on "other things", e.g. the property ponzi. Also, are northerners really poorer? We earn £30k not £44k, but if our mortgages are £500/month, not £1500/month, who is actually poorer? It's debatable. Yep Bradford used to be one of the richest cities in the entire world for example. I once saw a doc on a factory in Leeds with Egyptian design and the largest single room in the entire world at the time what amazing people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Works Its swings and roundabouts technology and immigration. Once my Iceni ancestors burned down Colchester and the port city of London took over various places rose and fell. Norwich was the second city of England for a while. Then it was Bristol with slaves and trade and then Liverpool and Manchester as the industrial revolution took hold with London skimming cash as the centre of banking and insurance and administration Then as that wained the capital with its strong cantillion effect retained the income as the manufacturing moved away becoming a global centre. Money brings money, and London with its airports and connections kept getting bigger and bigger until now maybe the pandemic will mark the end of the age of cities and technology will move wealth out again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightowl Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 The thread title asked about the South, but most debate focuses on London which isnt the same thing. Anyway, it may only be a minor thing but in WW2 the SE had many airfields which made sense to defend the country from where the attacks came from, but those same airfields and the technology companies that grew up around them in the cold war kept the SE connected ultimately to the rest of the world via air and receiving defense technology spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadebt Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 The thread title asked about the South, but most debate focuses on London which isnt the same thing. Anyway, it may only be a minor thing but in WW2 the SE had many airfields which made sense to defend the country from where the attacks came from, but those same airfields and the technology companies that grew up around them in the cold war kept the SE connected ultimately to the rest of the world via air and receiving defense technology spending. Bomber airfields more northern, fighter defense more southern: to reduce time for across English channel 'angels' interepts, and reduce the most dangerous flight time for unescorted allied bombers over enemy territory early in the war. Likewise, 'bandits' faced full wrath of RAF with less fighter escort, limited to only several minutes flying time in order to return to base . UK war effort was national, from the coal mines and steelworks to munitions and airplane manufacture, Bletchly Park, the 'land army'... national treasures were moved out of London, children were evacuated. Micheal Winners was interviewed on Richard and Judy once about his 80 000 word dieting book. He said it is really easy, just two words: eat less. Likewse this thread, in one word -London: the reason rich poor divide is really about proximity to London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 think of the wool trade and the wealth it brought to England. Wool -wasn't that Yorkshire? The reason, these days, why the south is wealthier is property inflation. Millions of people have benefitted from £100k's of HPI, and this has been very concentrated in the SE and particularly London. Wealth has been redefined as access to credit and we live in an "extractive economy", whereby people consume via credit backed by property values. Three quarters of GDP is consumption, and southerners can do the most consuming because they have the most credit to extract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14stFlyer Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Here is a slightly idealistic explanation. The smartest Young people from around the country (and from Europe and elsewhere too) come to London to work together and create value for themselves and others. Their combined enterprise is a perfect example of teamwork where the sum of their combined work is greater than the parts. As a result, their wealth increases more rapidly than that of young people who did not move to London. Some of these people return to their county/country of origin for a wealthy retirement. I believe there is a phrase for this form or migration, and London and SE is called an “Escalator Region”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 That is two different things. Accepting of an idea, new ways of working, new cultural workplace changes, this is something the "common sense" north is a fail on. The north is afraid of change/ideas that deny its history and culture Wooh there. In the early 80s the 'North' was mainly industry and extractive stuff. Both these sector took the full blast of globalisation, high pound/north sea oil and opening up for trade. The South, being based around UK services never faced that then. Now services are facing the full force of automation and digitsation. Look at how poorly the Southern based civil service are adapting to digitisation. Look at how fast employment and wages in the finsec are collapsing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Wool -wasn't that Yorkshire? The reason, these days, why the south is wealthier is property inflation. Millions of people have benefitted from £100k's of HPI, and this has been very concentrated in the SE and particularly London. Wealth has been redefined as access to credit and we live in an "extractive economy", whereby people consume via credit backed by property values. Three quarters of GDP is consumption, and southerners can do the most consuming because they have the most credit to extract. Just wool? It was not just a couple of straw chewing shepherds. Wool begat the looms which begat automated control and the steam engine, which begat automation and the industrial revolution. That is not a region afraid of change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Banking got bloated and manufacturing got shrunk. By thatcher. When that reverses so will north south divide. Edinburgh is a case of banking in north. Hence that's rich. Etc. Nothing innate about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm trying to read this book to find an answer to the same question. I hadn't come across Sybil before - will check it out. I have read Mary Barton, written in Manchester at the same time as Engels was there, and of a very similar age and topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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