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Why is Northern England so much poorer than Southern England: AKALA


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Because London.

 Maybe more manual workers up north, but more owners of industry and finance making the bigger cut of the money down south.  Family wealth and educational background is usually cumulative through generations, and the opposite from poorer less educated areas -even worse for previous generations. 

 If housing costs were the same throughout uk, without the distortion of housing benefit for working people, this richer/poorer contrast would be much less for average/low paid workers.  Likewise a low paid manual worker, long term renting and living in the south might have more disposable income after rent even taking a big pay cut living up north.

 Also a brain drain where top professionals, uk and foreign, in pretty much any field will gravitate towards London or want to be within commuter distance, some of these being future wealth creators.  

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Why is Northern England so much poorer than Southern England?

It's not always been so.  Back in the industrial revolution days people got paid more in factories than working the land.  Northerners were likely richer, on average, then.

Since then, production has been exported and the economy is based on "other things", e.g. the property ponzi.

Also, are northerners really poorer?  We earn £30k not £44k, but if our mortgages are £500/month, not £1500/month, who is actually poorer?  It's debatable.

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Because almost all of the money is created in the city of London.

Everyone else sits under the table, picking up crumbs.

The further away you are, the poorer you are.

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It's not always been so.  Back in the industrial revolution days people got paid more in factories than working the land.  Northerners were likely richer, on average, then.

Since then, production has been exported and the economy is based on "other things", e.g. the property ponzi.

Also, are northerners really poorer?  We earn £30k not £44k, but if our mortgages are £500/month, not £1500/month, who is actually poorer?  It's debatable.

This is right. Go back say 120 years, and most of the rural areas of southeast England were in the grip if agricultural depression. Whereas manufacturing and mining in the north provided well paid jobs to the masses and high returns to the rentiers. It has all been reversed due to the export of British industry to the developing World, and now to China.

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Are they?

The London median wage is not hugely more than the most Northern towns.

IMO London/South being 'well off' is a recent, temporary state.

Go back to the 70s and the towns with the highest number of high earners were places like Wakefield, where the miners were earning large wages.

Sure theres prime 'South' - prime London, posh Surrey places. But theres also a *lot* poor/low earning London/South places - sh1thole satellite towns, Hastings, Medway etc etc

Back before the oil crisis, the North was mainly manufacturing/heavy industry n extractive.

The South was low paid agri and low end services.

Post oil crisis, 3 day week, etc - the South bet heavily on services. The finsec bigbang saw a huge number of well paying finsec jobs created from ~1984.

Early 80s saw more n more Northern jobs in heavy industry/manufacturing go as the UK economy was opened up to globalisation.

In the South the massive icnrease of the finsec saw jobs push up to ~100 mile radius around London/large southern towns. These jobs paid very well for low skills.

Chuck in large subs for trains journeys- 50% of rail journeys start or end in London - andthe concentration of civil service jobs in London/S and state subbed media such as the BBC.

Then what?

Well, the finsec has seen huge reduction in jobs. Started off off with more n more computerisation of the sector. However 2007 an all that has seen several 100k of jobs lost.

I visit a lot of Southern towns around London. 20 odd years the largest top 3 employers were always finsec - bank backroom processing, life insurers.

Now these have pretty mcuh all gone. Bets example would be the road from Bmouth train station to the beach. Used to host large finsec. Now pretty much empty.

The increase in unemployment is being hit by tax credits. However the job creation in regional southern town and he wages paid are farcically low.

Chuck in (atill) high housing costs and these places offer nothing to the young, who appear to have leaving in droves.

Theres a large number of previously 'nice'/well off Southern towns which have a distinct sniff of Middlesbrough.

Look at London. Its now ~50% foreign born, most requiring large housing and wage subs to live there. To quote my mum on the Greenfell fire - Why are there so many foreign people living on benefits in London?

 

 

 

 

 

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It's not always been so.  Back in the industrial revolution days people got paid more in factories than working the land.  Northerners were likely richer, on average, then.

Since then, production has been exported and the economy is based on "other things", e.g. the property ponzi.

Also, are northerners really poorer?  We earn £30k not £44k, but if our mortgages are £500/month, not £1500/month, who is actually poorer?  It's debatable.

A silk hat on a Bradford millionaire ...

TS Elliot noticed that in the 20s...

In the 80s the highest concentration  of high earners was Wakefield.

Housing cost/disposable income is very noticeable.

The effect of MMR on Southern housing esp. as it discounts commuting costs, is going to be devastating.

The bail out of HTB allowing larger subs is also backfiring at a rapid rate.

 

 

 

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Geographical location, closer to market i,e Europe via the Port of London.

Everything ultimately stems from this.

Port of London is way too new.

As far as ports go, its doesnt really matter where the ships dock within ~100m - Harwich, Ull and Teesport are similar distance from Rotterdam.

Its the freight infrastructure that counts.

 

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Port of London is way too new.

As far as ports go, its doesnt really matter where the ships dock within ~100m - Harwich, Ull and Teesport are similar distance from Rotterdam.

Its the freight infrastructure that counts.

 

Quite. Felixstowe in Suffolk handles 50% of UK container freight, and the busiest road out of there connects it to the Midlands and the North.

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Its geography and history.

If you draw an imaginary line from the Wash to the Isle of Wight you are defining what we loosely call South East England.  Compared to the rest of what we now call the UK you are looking at the most productive and easily accessed agricultural land.  Farming was the first major industry we had and its importance should not be underestimated – think of the wool trade and the wealth it brought to England.  Add that to the Thames and its orientation towards the European mainland and you start to see why London became so important as its right in the middle of all that wealth production.  Industrialisation came later and for a short while favoured the North but that has passed for now.

The fact that we are now so London centric as a country, which in my opinion is constantly dragging the rest of the UK down, is a more recent story.

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Port of London is way too new.

As far as ports go, its doesnt really matter where the ships dock within ~100m - Harwich, Ull and Teesport are similar distance from Rotterdam.

Its the freight infrastructure that counts.

 

Port of Londinium is over 2000 years old and that's why it became the capital, thats my point. Whatever has happened since does not change why the economy is centered on the South East.

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The North had power from medieval times - Loyalty from your Northern Barons gave you military and political power. It took near genocidal levels of destruction to get the North in line with William I.  Losing your Northern support often meant losing your throne as many Kings found out.

London was a convenient trading and travel port to France to keep in touch with historical royalty.  Its power grew rapidly after Elizabeth I as international trade, and supporting financial services took off.

The North regained eminence (or at least parity with London) with the resources and industrialisation.  The problem here was it was all concentrated to provide profit - no social infrastructure was built. That was left to Unions, Friendly Societies, and Religious groups.  The South Lept ahead here and it provided a cushion for the rapid post industrial change.  The north had nothing close. Take the mine from a mining town or close the factory from a factory town and you have desolation.

 

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 Maybe more manual workers up north, but more owners of industry and finance making the bigger cut of the money down south.  Family wealth and educational background is usually cumulative through generations, and the opposite from poorer less educated areas -even worse for previous generations. 

 If housing costs were the same throughout uk, without the distortion of housing benefit for working people, this richer/poorer contrast would be much less for average/low paid workers.  Likewise a low paid manual worker, long term renting and living in the south might have more disposable income after rent even taking a big pay cut living up north.

 Also a brain drain where top professionals, uk and foreign, in pretty much any field will gravitate towards London or want to be within commuter distance, some of these being future wealth creators.  

I would also go for education, and liberalism, accepting difference not railing against it, which takes up time and money.

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I would also go for education, and liberalism, accepting difference not railing against it, which takes up time and money.

The North has been more accepting than the South for a long time.  I remember, as a kid, welcoming the immigrants from Asia and Africa into the factories.  When I was a student down south, i was being invited to go 'p**i bashing'.

Resentment in the North came from the desolation of industry shutting down.

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The North has been more accepting than the South for a long time.  I remember, as a kid, welcoming the immigrants from Asia and Africa into the factories.  When I was a student down south, i was being invited to go 'p**i bashing'.

Resentment in the North came from the desolation of industry shutting down.

That is two different things.

Accepting of an idea, new ways of working, new cultural workplace changes, this is something the "common sense" north is a fail on.

The north is afraid of  change/ideas that deny its history and culture

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That is two different things.

Accepting of an idea, new ways of working, new cultural workplace changes, this is something the "common sense" north is a fail on.

The north is afraid of  change/ideas that deny its history and culture

I accept your definition, but still don't agree.

At the risk of chanelling Monty Python,  apart from the first electric lighting, Novel engineering, Improved mining, materials science, shipbuilding, wind turbine scaling, tidal power generation what else have the North done?

The resistance to change was really (IMHO) an artefact of companies and governments wanting to minimise 'non-essential' spend on R&D or Social infrastructure. The number of innovations that went offshore is scandalous.

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A silk hat on a Bradford millionaire ...

TS Elliot noticed that in the 20s...

In the 80s the highest concentration  of high earners was Wakefield.

Housing cost/disposable income is very noticeable.

The effect of MMR on Southern housing esp. as it discounts commuting costs, is going to be devastating.

The bail out of HTB allowing larger subs is also backfiring at a rapid rate.

 

 

 

The wealth did not stay in Wakefield,

clogs to clogs in three generations 

antique-silk-top-hats-model.jpg

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I accept your definition, but still don't agree.

At the risk of chanelling Monty Python,  apart from the first electric lighting, Novel engineering, Improved mining, materials science, shipbuilding, wind turbine scaling, tidal power generation what else have the North done?

Don't forget the Railways , Well obviously, goes without saying, "The Railways".

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The wealth did not stay in Wakefield,

clogs to clogs in three generations 

antique-silk-top-hats-model.jpg

Well ..  Im not sure.

It didnt stay in the Bradford-Wakey centres- they are total sh1tholes.

However, they always have been.

The area does support a large number of small village/towns with expensive houses.

 

 

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  • 439 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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