Universal Basic Income (UBI)

[Warlord]

Does anyone think Rishi will extend/convert the furlough scheme into a UBI ?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Warlord

[steve99]

1 hour ago, Warlord said:

Does anyone think Rishi will extend/convert the furlough scheme into a UBI ?

You mean for the privileged people that already get it? or across the board?   I can imagine the first scenario as they will  be the ones who might well vote tory and as tory largesse is now 100% confined to a) their donors and b) their voters, as we can see via which cities and councils they help or hinder. 

[steve99]

On 04/09/2020 at 17:04, flb said:

Oh. Where do you think they're getting the money from? Surely you don't think it's Boris paying those benefits from his own pocket? Do you think it's got anything to do with this?

It kind of seems to me like I'm supporting two families (two families, not two people) and I'm not exactly sure why I supposedly owe them a living.

No, I don't resent them, I don't hate them, I don't ... anything "them", but it's a bit difficult for me to be fan of forced socialism under the circumstances.

Those lucky enough to be in the upper 3% of earners are there either directly or indirectly off the backs of those that earn much less which means that someone else is 'owing' you a living in one way or another.   If I, who have zero income have to pay a plumber £50ph then I am subsidising his high income by making me so much poorer in the process ie I am 'owing' him a much higher standard of living than he deserves.   Those on £90kpa should just be pleased they are in such a lucky position, and please don't quote me 'you make your own luck'  it is very rarely a 100% true statement or even 50% true, just look at Boris and the rest of the privileged class.    Perhaps it should be 'user pays' for everything, then when you crash your car and break your leg you should have your own ambulance? then your own personal hospital? or not in which case the rest of us will be 'owing' you your life. 

[steve99]

On 04/09/2020 at 19:02, flb said:

Well, I too would be very generous with Bill Gates' money.

When it comes to my own, I think 100k/year might be a bit too generous for someone like me. I can understand supporting one person who can't work, but I kind of think they wouldn't need that much - and it certainly doesn't feel like I'm using 100k in public services either, especially if I step outside and see the 120421 potholes that haven't been fixed in the past 5 years.

It's nice the the council is increasing council tax to support older people - which are not related to me in any way whatsoever - though. 

If you really do feel that way, though, I would ask that you put your money where your mouth is. Go ahead, spend 6 months (it doesn't take longer to learn my "trade") make this money and try to look happy when you're taxed.

...but I'm guessing your schedule is kind of too busy for that, right?

Yes, indeed, that's EXACTLY how it works. You buy a ticket and you win a job. It's all luck.

''Yes, indeed, that's EXACTLY how it works. You buy a ticket and you win a job. It's all luck.''

Getting a particular education or qualification is for many people on par with buying a lottery ticket, then you need the luck to make it work and get a job.  Both my wife, myself, my sister and some friends have lost our livelihoods in the last decade just on the whims of governments and employers, either offshoring or bringing in immigrants to do the work, even though we were not particularly well paid.  Another friend who was one of the best sports massage therapists around, made his own luck getting qualified, getting experienced then he got MS and cant do anything now, I have had several friends make their own luck then drop dead, or their children did which in turn destroyed their lives,   that's how luck works. Most people who have things go exactly as planned put it all down to their hard work but in the background they absolutely need luck to get there and stay there. 

[Pop321]

12 hours ago, steve99 said:

''Yes, indeed, that's EXACTLY how it works. You buy a ticket and you win a job. It's all luck.''

Getting a particular education or qualification is for many people on par with buying a lottery ticket, then you need the luck to make it work and get a job.  Both my wife, myself, my sister and some friends have lost our livelihoods in the last decade just on the whims of governments and employers, either offshoring or bringing in immigrants to do the work, even though we were not particularly well paid.  Another friend who was one of the best sports massage therapists around, made his own luck getting qualified, getting experienced then he got MS and cant do anything now, I have had several friends make their own luck then drop dead, or their children did which in turn destroyed their lives,   that's how luck works. Most people who have things go exactly as planned put it all down to their hard work but in the background they absolutely need luck to get there and stay there. 

Yep, true. This struck me when a friend made a life choice and bought a business in 2006, and I nearly did the same because it was a great idea but I decided against it.

He did absolutely everything right and survived the 2007/8 slump whilst others didn’t. He managed another 6 years and went bankrupt and basically it was bad timing.

So my way if thinking isn’t that I have had good luck....I haven’t I have worked hard. What has happened to me is that I made some decent decisions (as many do) and have avoided bad luck.

So it’s not about good luck or working hard.....sometimes some people do everything right and just have some unavoidable back luck which you have detailed. And I thank my lucky stars for my health and family everyday. 👍🏻👍🏻

Edited May 8, 2021 by Pop321

[Will!]

On 03/09/2020 at 14:07, flb said:

Well, like our man here said, details are to be worked out by smart politicians. Any moment now - they just haven't had the time to come up with a working system in the past 3000 years, but we're not about to give up just because of THAT.

You want details?  Here are some details:

 

[winkie]

13 hours ago, steve99 said:

''Yes, indeed, that's EXACTLY how it works. You buy a ticket and you win a job. It's all luck.''

Getting a particular education or qualification is for many people on par with buying a lottery ticket, then you need the luck to make it work and get a job.  Both my wife, myself, my sister and some friends have lost our livelihoods in the last decade just on the whims of governments and employers, either offshoring or bringing in immigrants to do the work, even though we were not particularly well paid.  Another friend who was one of the best sports massage therapists around, made his own luck getting qualified, getting experienced then he got MS and cant do anything now, I have had several friends make their own luck then drop dead, or their children did which in turn destroyed their lives,   that's how luck works. Most people who have things go exactly as planned put it all down to their hard work but in the background they absolutely need luck to get there and stay there. 

Yes exactly how it works.....being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, being born to the right people, choosing to work in the right sectors at the right time, going to the right school, having the right teacher or boss or parent......how many lost out to the biggest winners?......money flows about plenty of it, plenty for everyone...... disadvantaged v advantaged......those that get a legg up v those that are trying to pull themselves out of the pit.......not lucky but fortunate to find themselves in the right place.......it is not just about money either.

 

.....some of the richest people are also the poorest.

Edited May 8, 2021 by winkie

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Wales to launch pilot universal basic income scheme  

Campaigners hail ‘huge moment’ as first minister commits to trials of payments to cover living costs

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/14/wales-to-launch-universal-basic-income-pilot-scheme

[nothernsoul]

We have the bizarre sittuation when their is mainstream media discussion about UBI, or everbody getting money permanently for nothing, as an entitlement to cover the cost of living . Whereas in the real world there is almost no comment on the fact somebody who might have paid decades of tax/NI, is temporarily out of work, gets less than 80 quid a week, which doesn't cover cost of living. 

[nothernsoul]

I would rather have a contributory welfare system myself, with a genuine time limited insurance element(6 months or so paying a percentage of previously taxed income) to cover periods of sickness or unemployment. 

[btl_hater]

12 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

I would rather have a contributory welfare system myself, with a genuine time limited insurance element(6 months or so paying a percentage of previously taxed income) to cover periods of sickness or unemployment. 

This is how it works in several western continental European countries. One month at 70% previous salary for each year you worked previously (or something similar). Oh and none of that insurance is means tested BS.

[Greater Fool]

2 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

We have the bizarre sittuation when their is mainstream media discussion about UBI, or everbody getting money permanently for nothing, as an entitlement to cover the cost of living . Whereas in the real world there is almost no comment on the fact somebody who might have paid decades of tax/NI, is temporarily out of work, gets less than 80 quid a week, which doesn't cover cost of living. 

Reminds me of when I got made redundant a few years ago, after being taxed £100s of thousands over 20 years I was entitled to £70 a week for 6 months and would have to report to the JCP to prove I was looking for work, I never even bothered claiming. What a joke. Now we are lead to believe the tax payers could afford £500 a month or whatever UBI paid to everyone who has a pulse in the UK indefinitely.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Tiger131

[Will!]

2 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

I would rather have a contributory welfare system myself, with a genuine time limited insurance element(6 months or so paying a percentage of previously taxed income) to cover periods of sickness or unemployment. 

I used to think a contribution-based welfare state was the answer to all the questions about the 'fairness' of state benefits.  The trouble is a contribution-based welfare state only works if everyone has the opportunity to make contributions and society can reach a decision on how little, if anything, to give those who have not contributed.  I don't think either of those conditions are true at the moment so now I'm a supporter of a Citizen's Income and state benefits as negative income tax.

[nothernsoul]

I instinctively dont like UBI for similar reasons that I dont like its cousin MMT. They are both supported by millionaire silicon valley types. Individuals who are indifferent to the status quo of astronomical property prices in california and a horrendous in your face homelessness problem. The attitude is to give some money to these people so we dont have to worry about it anymore. Remember this is a society without universal healthcare, so you get people who are living in their cars, being  given a subsistence income, which doesnt go very far because the social infrastructure is neglected. 

Both MMT and UBI have a pseudo leftist appeal. But neither seek to tackle the structural injustices/problems within the system. They would also both stoke inflation which again suits those  existing  asset wealth. 

[scottbeard]

5 hours ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

Wales to launch pilot universal basic income scheme  

Campaigners hail ‘huge moment’ as first minister commits to trials of payments to cover living costs

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/14/wales-to-launch-universal-basic-income-pilot-scheme

I think UBI is a great idea - I just hope that they really do trial UBI and not some kind of alternative means-tested Universal Credit that will have all of the downsides of UBI and none of the upsides.

The keys to it are:
- Pitching it at just the right level to ensure people really can (just about) live on it but are still motivated to work (a bit like the Basic State Pension)
- Making it absolutely 100% cast iron universal and 0% means-tested.  It doesn't matter whether you are a homeless tramp or the Queen, you should get it - unless you voluntarily opt out of it, or ask it to be donated to charity or something.  Otherwise it just creates more rubbish incentives.

 

[Will!]

On 03/09/2020 at 19:51, A17 said:

Okay... So to summarize, there seems to be three general plans.

1. The Soviet. Everybody is given enough UBI to live off (£10k pa), as well as a free/cheap place to live. However, there is no real incentive to work or better oneself. The scheme is funded by taxing the rapidly shrinking useful part of the economy into oblivion, or by printing money. Expect long queues to hand over your weekly allowance for a loaf of bread.

2. The Simple Concept. The current welfare and pensions system is scrapped, and the money currently spent is split evenly between the population. No arguments, no exemptions, no special cases. I calculated earlier that would be £87pw for the entire population, or £111pw if only over-18s received it. Not really enough to live off, so if you are unemployed, or unfortunate enough to be unable to work (though disability, old age) you are in trouble. Which leads on to Plan 3....

3. The Gordon Brown. Start with Plan 2, but add expansions for certain categories. The elderly get additional money (we could call it a "pension"). If you are disabled and unable to work, you can get a top up, but of course this would require a government agency to assess and check who is deserving of the top up. Maybe an additional payment for those who have recently lost their job, or those with children?  The wealthy - do they really need their UBI? Suddenly, the scheme is back to where we are now, either with people paying higher taxes only to have it returned as UBI (less the government worker handling fee), with the UBI reduced to a nominal £10 pw.

Well, option 2 has to be enough to live on, although not necessarily enough for where the citizen wants to live, or the concept fails.

As for option 3, that's manageable with expansions as negative tax.  Fall into a certain category and have a job or some other income?  Pay less tax / keep more money.  Fall into a certain category and no job or other income?  No difference.

[nothernsoul]

Dont forget Plan 4. The liberatrian lite. State pensions, all benefits, alongside provision of healthcare, education and social care is scrapped. Instead everybody is given a cash sum with which they can spend directly on whatever goods and services they want within a free market. The better off put it towards what they already spent on private healthcare and education. The poor spend it in daily living as it isnt enough to access decent essential services. 

[GeneCernan]

So this is a universal income, that gives everyone enough money to live off? What happens if the people who work in supermarkets, who drive our lorries, who service our cars, who cut our hair, who run our bars and restaurants or help to keep law and order think to themselves "Bollock to this, I'll just take the free money and sit at home all day watching Netflix"?

[Will!]

2 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

Dont forget Plan 4. The liberatrian lite. State pensions, all benefits, alongside provision of healthcare, education and social care is scrapped. Instead everybody is given a cash sum with which they can spend directly on whatever goods and services they want within a free market. The better off put it towards what they already spent on private healthcare and education. The poor spend it in daily living as it isnt enough to access decent essential services. 

Social care's never been free at the point of access.  It wasn't in 1948 and it isn't now.

[Will!]

37 minutes ago, GeneCernan said:

So this is a universal income, that gives everyone enough money to live off? What happens if the people who work in supermarkets, who drive our lorries, who service our cars, who cut our hair, who run our bars and restaurants or help to keep law and order think to themselves "Bollock to this, I'll just take the free money and sit at home all day watching Netflix"?

That's probably all they'd be able to afford to do.

[nome]

36 minutes ago, GeneCernan said:

So this is a universal income, that gives everyone enough money to live off? What happens if the people who work in supermarkets, who drive our lorries, who service our cars, who cut our hair, who run our bars and restaurants or help to keep law and order think to themselves "Bollock to this, I'll just take the free money and sit at home all day watching Netflix"?

Well that's exactly what I'd do, I live such a frugal life anyway that from the UBI figures I've heard quoted I'd be provided with more money than I need to live on

[Social Justice League]

I see Wales are going to trial UBI.  Boris and Co have been trialing UBI since last March and calling it Furlough.

UBI is on it's way and it's an easy election win for the Tories.  The people want fiat for nothing, which is easy to provide as it's worthless to begin with.

[Social Justice League]

5 hours ago, GeneCernan said:

So this is a universal income, that gives everyone enough money to live off? What happens if the people who work in supermarkets, who drive our lorries, who service our cars, who cut our hair, who run our bars and restaurants or help to keep law and order think to themselves "Bollock to this, I'll just take the free money and sit at home all day watching Netflix"?

Half the country is currently doing this now.  The Tories call it furlough and they keep on extending.

UBI for half the country isn't going to work long term so it will have to be UBI for all.  The daft BOE can create the fiat out of thin air to keep the serfs consuming and the wheels on the economy............for now.

[A17]

11 hours ago, Will! said:

Well, option 2 has to be enough to live on, although not necessarily enough for where the citizen wants to live, or the concept fails.

As for option 3, that's manageable with expansions as negative tax.  Fall into a certain category and have a job or some other income?  Pay less tax / keep more money.  Fall into a certain category and no job or other income?  No difference.

Unfortunately there isn't enough money in the economy to give a enough for people to live on - even in a cheap part of the country, hence Option 2 would turn into Option 1.

How can disabled people or the elderly be expected to earn their own additional money, and hence benefit from a negative income tax? A UBI cannot realistically replace all benefits, which defeats the point of it.

11 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

Dont forget Plan 4. The liberatrian lite. State pensions, all benefits, alongside provision of healthcare, education and social care is scrapped. Instead everybody is given a cash sum with which they can spend directly on whatever goods and services they want within a free market. The better off put it towards what they already spent on private healthcare and education. The poor spend it in daily living as it isnt enough to access decent essential services. 

Interesting idea. Instead of free education, give parents an educational voucher worth £6000 (source) each year. They can exchange it for a place at a government school, or use it to partially cover fees at a school of their choice (making up the difference out of their own pocket). Initially this would obviously see private school fees jump by £6000, but it could lead to the development of high quality schools that make the most out of the £6000 voucher with a limited parental top-up (another few thousand).

Similarly with the state pension. No idea what it would cost to obtain a similar annuity in the private sector, but that money could be given as a voucher too each month when you are working. You could either turn it over to the government in order to secure the state pension, or invest it yourself and take your chances.

 

[phantominvestor]

Just read the comments on this BBC article for £48 basic income a week: Basic income of £48 a week in UK urged - BBC News

People don't want to be taxed to pay for universal basic income. With Modern Monetary Theory, we can just print the money to pay for universal basic income.  I figure it would make the economy more active. There would be more money for more businesses. People would start businesses left right and centre. There would be lifestyle businesses. Art, music would be created because these people can survive.