Mass changes to UK immigration requirements

[PeanutButter]

 

Well, that's an entirely different kind of problem caused by transplanting people from war zones into rich countries.

I think it's a leadership problem. Exactly the same as we have here. No one willing to take responsibility and no punishment for breaking the rules. 

 

At the end of August, two teenage boys were abducted, raped and abused for hours at a cemetery outside Stockholm. When police found them they had been stabbed and buried alive in a pit. Somehow they survived.

These deplorable acts of aggression now have a name in Sweden. So-called ‘humiliation robberies’ are on the rise, and the victims are often children and young people who are not just mugged — mainly by immigrant youths — but also subjected to all kinds of horrifying and degrading treatment.

[spyguy]

 

The rules basically assume that countries have ID card systems and a registry of local residents. 27/28 of the EU states do, guess which one does not.

And a contribution, time limited welfare state.

Brexit falls at the feet of Blair and Brown, with Straw deserving  blame too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219

Quote from BBC as some find DM not very palatable.

[Big Orange]

 

These deplorable acts of aggression now have a name in Sweden. So-called ‘humiliation robberies’ are on the rise, and the victims are often children and young people who are not just mugged — mainly by immigrant youths — but also subjected to all kinds of horrifying and degrading treatment.

I think it ties in to how dysfunctional snd slow to adapt Western European police, courts, and prisons are to growing social problems and dealing with dangerous people.

[Big Orange]

 

And a contribution, time limited welfare state.

Brexit falls at the feet of Blair and Brown, with Straw deserving  blame too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219

Quote from BBC as some find DM not very palatable.

It seemed like a good idea at the time and a free for all, wuth an endless stream of ready trained E. European workers (not realising it'd eventually tank Britain's membership of the EU and its economy).

[debtlessmanc]

 

And a contribution, time limited welfare state.

Brexit falls at the feet of Blair and Brown, with Straw deserving  blame too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219

Quote from BBC as some find DM not very palatable.

it is/was a disaster, the UK simply has never had to face this kind of stuff in recent (2-3 centuries) of history. The population and the law was not equipped to deal with the social problems it created. I know many deniers will say "what social problems\' but it is the principle, one countries problems cannot be solved by displacing most of its people into another. The culture has to change. Here is some text from matthew engels tour of the EU to look at brexit - from the economist and a europhile (matthew engels)

 

"When I began this series in 2016, I stood on the EU’s north-eastern border, where Estonia meets Russia, and wrote that Brexit seemed from there to be a crime against humanity. I still believe that. Being in the EU means a lot to the Estonians on many levels. Eleven countries later, near the south-eastern border, where the threat of invasion is far more remote, one sees the other side of the picture. Exit is not on the Romanian agenda either, but here the relationship is more transactional and cynical. Their membership is not about nation-building.

 In 1941 Franklin Roosevelt coined the phrase “Four Freedoms” (freedom of speech, of worship, from want, from fear). I believe Brussels’ obsession with its own pastiche “four freedoms” – across a continent with huge disparities in living standards and political cultures – is endangering FDR’s far more important vision.

And that’s a crime against humanity, too. It stops Romania becoming a modern nation, and makes it a mere exporter of labour: a land perpetually dependent on remittances. "

[thecrashingisles]

 

it is/was a disaster, the UK simply has never had to face this kind of stuff in recent (2-3 centuries) of history. The population and the law was not equipped to deal with the social problems it created. I know many deniers will say "what social problems\' but it is the principle, one countries problems cannot be solved by displacing most of its people into another. The culture has to change. Here is some text from matthew engels tour of the EU to look at brexit - from the economist and a europhile (matthew engels)

 

"When I began this series in 2016, I stood on the EU’s north-eastern border, where Estonia meets Russia, and wrote that Brexit seemed from there to be a crime against humanity. I still believe that. Being in the EU means a lot to the Estonians on many levels. Eleven countries later, near the south-eastern border, where the threat of invasion is far more remote, one sees the other side of the picture. Exit is not on the Romanian agenda either, but here the relationship is more transactional and cynical. Their membership is not about nation-building.

 In 1941 Franklin Roosevelt coined the phrase “Four Freedoms” (freedom of speech, of worship, from want, from fear). I believe Brussels’ obsession with its own pastiche “four freedoms” – across a continent with huge disparities in living standards and political cultures – is endangering FDR’s far more important vision.

And that’s a crime against humanity, too. It stops Romania becoming a modern nation, and makes it a mere exporter of labour: a land perpetually dependent on remittances. "

Straw was talking about waiving the transition period in 2004 for Poland, etc, not about Romania and Bulgaria.

On the substantive point, the idea that without EU membership, emigration would not be a problem and Romania would be a kind of prison from which the ambitious could not escape is absurd.

Edited October 17, 2020 by thecrashingisles

[PeanutButter]

 

I think it ties in to how dysfunctional snd slow to adapt Western European police, courts, and prisons are to growing social problems and dealing with dangerous people.

Denial, denial, denial. That's the mantra.

Johnson: I did NOT do that. 

All evidence: He did

Cummings: I was testing my eyesight.

All evidence: He was not. 

General public: *Shrug*

 

If no one cares about the truth and reality anymore then it's a quick descent into anarchy. Which would bring house prices down. 

[spyguy]

 

Straw was talking about waiving the transition period in 2004 for Poland, etc, not about Romania and Bulgaria.

On the substantive point, the idea that without EU membership, emigration would not be a problem and Romania would be a kind of prison from which the ambitious could not escape is absurd.

tTraw was talking total ******

Heres his quote

"One spectacular mistake in which I participated (not alone) was in lifting the transitional restrictions on the eastern European states like Poland and Hungary which joined the EU in mid-2004," he said.

"Other existing EU members, notably France and Germany, decided to stick to the general rule which prevented migrants from these new states from working until 2011.

"But we thought that it would be good for Britain if these folk could come and work here from 2004.

"Thorough research by the Home Office suggested that the impact of this benevolence would in any event be 'relatively small, at between 5,000 and 13,000 immigrants per year up to 2010'.

"Events proved these forecasts worthless. Net migration reached close to a quarter of a million at its peak in 2010. Lots of red faces, mine included."

So, you have the UK and EU. They make a guess at a change. What do they do when that guess turns out to be hopelessy wrong?

Nothing, letting he mistake compound.

Absolutely the same problem occurred with the Euro.

Again, Europe does a large number of small to medium things that make the lives of European,s small changes in laws and regulation. I forever grateful of being able to get rid of he for4est of phone chargers, being able to just have a micro USB or USBC connector.

However the big, political driven stuff, whether  its uncontrolled FOM or the common currency has been disasters. MAde even worse as they are not rolled back, poltical driven changes by 3rd rate Pols being some sort of unfallible.

 

 

 

[spyguy]

 

I used to work with a (very capable) Romanian doctor.  She said that she knew Brexit was going to happen when she walked through Hyde Park and saw lots of Roma there.  In her view, if the UK was interpreting FOM to allow the Roma in then it was all over.

This post is coming up to 5 years old.

 

At that time the only time Id seen Brexit being used was on obscure bond forums, where they were looking for tradeable events.

As far as the media and the Pols were concerned they were voting for something like an act of surrender terms to Martin invaders i.e. an event so unlikely that it was nothing more than some Poltical theatre.

The great n good, all living in expensive areas that shielded them from the full effects and problems  of the millions of EEers pouring in. Maybe they expressed surprise at why all the car washes had changed from machines to 20 odd Roma with buckets and sponges but they 'Saw no ships'

Id visited friend in Mboro and Sheffileld inthe year up to the vote. Both had poor areas (Gresham and Page Hall) where EE had streamed in, in huge numbers, causing huge problems - school places, class disruption, huge increase in crime)

Brexit was swung by the people who rarely vote coming out in force.

 

[thecrashingisles]

 

So, you have the UK and EU. They make a guess at a change. What do they do when that guess turns out to be hopelessy wrong?

Nothing, letting he mistake compound.

Absolutely the same problem occurred with the Euro.

Again, Europe does a large number of small to medium things that make the lives of European,s small changes in laws and regulation. I forever grateful of being able to get rid of he for4est of phone chargers, being able to just have a micro USB or USBC connector.

However the big, political driven stuff, whether  its uncontrolled FOM or the common currency has been disasters. MAde even worse as they are not rolled back, poltical driven changes by 3rd rate Pols being some sort of unfallible.

The treaties allowed for a 7 year transition period but the UK decided we didn't want that because we thought opening the labour market would give us an advantage over France and Germany. Blaming the EU for that is ridiculous.

[debtlessmanc]

 

The treaties allowed for a 7 year transition period but the UK decided we didn't want that because we thought opening the labour market would give us an advantage over France and Germany. Blaming the EU for that is ridiculous.

It wasn't "we" it was Tony Blair. Most of the rest of the EU HoS were doing their sergeant Wilson "Do you think that is wise?" act

Edited October 18, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[thecrashingisles]

 

It wasn't "we" it was tony blair

Then your real complaint should be with the British democratic system, not the EU.

[debtlessmanc]

 

Then your real complaint should be with the British democratic system, not the EU.

Given that many, if not the majority, of the British people think it was a mistake, how do they vote to restrict any further influx?

 

[thecrashingisles]

 

Given that many, if not the majority, of the British people think it was a mistake, how do they vote to restrict any further influx?

On EU expansion, what's done is done. In the long run I don't think integration of people from A8 countries will cause any problems.

I think the political problem is that the Treasury still sees immigration in a 'numbers on a spreadsheet' way, so it just becomes something that politicians play lip service to wanting to 'control', but there's no real strategy.

[sammersmith]

 

Blaming the EU for that is ridiculous.

I think the blame is rightly targeted at Tony Blair / nuLabour, but the EU is not totally blameless. They could clearly see the issues being caused by FOM in the UK when Cameron went for his renegotiation but obstinately held up their 4 freedoms as sacrosanct. 

 

On EU expansion, what's done is done. In the long run I don't think integration of people from A8 countries will cause any problems.

What's done is done?!? The consequence of EU expansion was Brexit.

You clearly don't like Brexit and probably want to rejoin, so how can you fight against the Brexit outcome but brush off the cause as 'done' and 'not likely cause any long term problems'? Surely as someone who is very fond of the EU, the A8 expansion has caused the greatest harm to people like yourself?

[spyguy]

 

I think the blame is rightly targeted at Tony Blair / nuLabour, but the EU is not totally blameless. They could clearly see the issues being caused by FOM in the UK when Cameron went for his renegotiation but obstinately held up their 4 freedoms as sacrosanct. 

What's done is done?!? The consequence of EU expansion was Brexit.

You clearly don't like Brexit and probably want to rejoin, so how can you fight against the Brexit outcome but brush off the cause as 'done' and 'not likely cause any long term problems'? Surely as someone who is very fond of the EU, the A8 expansion has caused the greatest harm to people like yourself?

Again, its clever idea from EU bureaucrats which the EU should have been monitoring.

Any one with any sense could see the EU debt crisis emerging - PIIGS ecnomies were borrowing huge sums as they amrket had, incorrectly, marked down their borrowing costs.

But the ECB/EU could not consider there might be any problem wit their ERUEO setup, so carried on itll it all blew up - and stills blows up - in their face.

FOM should have come with some sort of EU control/registration, so they could see where people were going.

FOM was conceived wit hte idea that it would make travel easier for people living and working in and around Benelux-  Jan from Amsterdam could easily travel around, so could Helmut from Frankfurt or Jean from Strasburg.

They did get. People stayed were they were were, making life easier for people living near borders.

However with the EE ascensions, what they got were millions of EErs moving lock stock and Grandma to the UK, so work in subbed jobs.

Of course, Labour would not or could not admit that its EU great ideas and tax credit system had been turbo charged disaster - Browns not one for admitting hes an idiot. Blair is just not good on detail - more a smiley face and cheque in psot Pol.

Then the coalition came up, just as UK deficit was hitting 12% - levels youd expect to see after a war.

 

[thecrashingisles]

 

I think the blame is rightly targeted at Tony Blair / nuLabour, but the EU is not totally blameless. They could clearly see the issues being caused by FOM in the UK when Cameron went for his renegotiation but obstinately held up their 4 freedoms as sacrosanct. 

What's done is done?!? The consequence of EU expansion was Brexit.

You clearly don't like Brexit and probably want to rejoin, so how can you fight against the Brexit outcome but brush off the cause as 'done' and 'not likely cause any long term problems'? Surely as someone who is very fond of the EU, the A8 expansion has caused the greatest harm to people like yourself?

On Brexit what's done is done too. We can't go back to how it was in 2016. Yes I do think we should rejoin eventually, but it would have to be a completely different kind of relationship where people actually embrace it instead of seeing it as a plot against us and resenting it. I doubt that will be any time soon.

In the long term as the post-communist economies catch up, free movement within the EU won't be so contentious so I genuinely think it's not worth focusing on. The issue of corruption and the rule of law in a couple of states is a bigger problem that the EU will need to address.

[thecrashingisles]

 

FOM was conceived wit hte idea that it would make travel easier for people living and working in and around Benelux-  Jan from Amsterdam could easily travel around, so could Helmut from Frankfurt or Jean from Strasburg.

They did get. People stayed were they were were, making life easier for people living near borders.

However with the EE ascensions, what they got were millions of EErs moving lock stock and Grandma to the UK, so work in subbed jobs.

Of course, Labour would not or could not admit that its EU great ideas and tax credit system had been turbo charged disaster - Browns not one for admitting hes an idiot. Blair is just not good on detail - more a smiley face and cheque in psot Pol.

Then the coalition came up, just as UK deficit was hitting 12% - levels youd expect to see after a war.

I think Blair and Brown were a terrible combination, both of them living in a fantasy land in different ways.

[iamnumerate]

 

Well, that's an entirely different kind of problem caused by transplanting people from war zones into rich countries.

Funny how only people from some war zones cause those problems.  There is quite a lot of violence in some Latin American countries but Latin Americans don't cause problems like that.

[thecrashingisles]

 

Funny how only people from some war zones cause those problems.  There is quite a lot of violence in some Latin American countries but Latin Americans don't cause problems like that.

Indeed.

[iamnumerate]

 

Indeed.

I forgot Cambodian and Vietnamese immigrants in the early 80s who also came from violent war zones.

[sammersmith]

 

In the long term as the post-communist economies catch up, free movement within the EU won't be so contentious so I genuinely think it's not worth focusing on. The issue of corruption and the rule of law in a couple of states is a bigger problem that the EU will need to address.

I don't know about that. Romania has a long way to go to include its Roma community into mainstream society so they can see the benefits of staying. Poland was on a big outreach drive recently to tempt its young workers home but in interviews i saw no one was interested. 

Then, when Poland/Hungary/Romania do finally catchup to western EU standards you've got to go through this process all over again with new western Balkan countries joining. This time France, Germany, and Italy can absorb the full wave of Albanians/Serbians/Bosnians and we'll see how much of a fan they are of FOM after that.  

[shlomo]

 

Funny how only people from some war zones cause those problems.  There is quite a lot of violence in some Latin American countries but Latin Americans don't cause problems like that.

They do in the US

https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/dangerous-gangs-united-states.html/

With an estimated 20,000-35,000 members, the Latin Kings is mostly comprised of Latinos from a number of different countries. Originally, the gang started up in Humboldt Park in Chicago, with the coming together of Latino groups to defend themselves against discrimination and violence. Since then, though, the gang has adopted violence as its own. Look out for the colors black and gold, and the group’s famous “sacred crown” insignia. 

[Will!]

 

I think the blame is rightly targeted at Tony Blair / nuLabour, but the EU is not totally blameless. They could clearly see the issues being caused by FOM in the UK when Cameron went for his renegotiation but obstinately held up their 4 freedoms as sacrosanct.

Funnily enough, the third episode of interesting recent BBC Radio series "The Political School" mentioned loss of institutional memory in the civil service.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000l8nz

On the Brexit thread, @Confusion of VIsposted a workaround to the National Insurance system that the civil service advised the government before 2004 it could introduce to restrict EU migrants' access to state benefits.  By the time of David Cameron's "emergency brake" on benefits for migrants in 2016 that appears to have been forgotten.

 

[sammersmith]

 

On the Brexit thread, @Confusion of VIsposted a workaround to the National Insurance system that the civil service advised the government before 2004 it could introduce to restrict EU migrants' access to state benefits.  By the time of David Cameron's "emergency brake" on benefits for migrants in 2016 that appears to have been forgotten.

I can see a number of issues with that idea

- This ‘qualifying period’ would have to be 2 years to allow 18 year old UK citizens access to benefits. 2 years is not long enough to put people off. A tough 2 years then a lifetime of benefits seems a small price to pay.

- benefit tourism is a small proportion of EUers. Most will work so the numbers coming will still be high

- UK gov couldn’t prevent access to schools and NHS through this approach so the criticism that school places and doctors appointments are being taken would still be there

- it could not be applied retroactively so was too late when Cameron’s renegotiation, and Blair obs wouldn’t have done this is 2004

- it’s clearly a ‘hack’ to get around the spirit of the EU’s rules. A Guardian journo would press the gov on what the point of this was and the gov would have to squirm / defend it. Labour would pull out some UK citizen who fell through the cracks and is impacted by this law. 

...and I’m sure there are other unintended consequences that I didn’t think of within 5 mins of reading that proposal