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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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On 16/07/2020 at 09:24, debtlessmanc said:

He was anti our membership of the -EEC , I am not going to expand his reasons here, he is long dead. He would be ashamed of me if I was a corbynite anti-Israel nut. I've been to Israel -only half decent country in the ME

I would much rather leave Judaism in Israel (not perfect) than Islam in most Muslim countries.

On 16/07/2020 at 09:30, debtlessmanc said:

An Iranian friend of mine (old man been on the U.K. since the 60's) complained to me years ago that the people turning up in his mosque who were claiming asylum had completely the wrong accents to be Iranian Kurds, they were Turkish. He was really annoyed that the authorities were taken in by this. That was 20 odd years ago.

I have heard two Colombian Christians who were refused visas to stay in the UK, that lots of people told them to just claim asylum but they couldn't lie for religious reasons.  Sadly lots of other South Americans can lie.

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43 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I would much rather leave Judaism in Israel (not perfect) than Islam in most Muslim countries.

 In the 1990’s my then girlfrIend worked in london and Lived in a shared a house. At one point she shared with a south african lesbian Rabbi who had got married to a christian lesbian in a jewish ceremony. Judaism is a very broad “church” i dont think islam has got their yet.

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5 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Interesting to speculate how things would be different in the uk was in. The frugal four would probably just keep stum and let the UK complain for them. 

Yep. Certain European Europhile friends assured me that it would be all smooth sailing for the EU once the UK left - after all it was always "perfidious Albion" who was the stick in the mud. All the other 27 wanted to behave like good Europeans, but it was the English who complained and held back.

The UK acted as a convenient country to hide behind. The frugal four (and others) could pay lip service to being good Europeans, but rely on the UK being the dissenting vote in their favor, meaning that they never really needed to stick their head above the parapet.

 

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There was a recent Bello column about Spain and Latin America.

Spain’s complicated relationship with Latin America

The former colonial power wants to play a useful role, but undermines its own influence

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2020/07/11/spains-complicated-relationship-with-latin-america

Now it may surprise a lot of Europeans that Spain has unilaterally inserted itself as the EUs Mr LA esp. when you consider how crap Spanish Pols are. Some are basically going on a personal limb and causing major problems:

Spain’s biggest diplomatic failure has been over Venezuela’s slide into dictatorship under Nicolás Maduro. It was left to Norway to try to broker an agreement last year between the government and the opposition. Spain is hobbled by the antics of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, a Socialist former prime minister, who claims to be a mediator in Venezuela. The country’s opposition considers him a stooge for Mr Maduro. Because of Mr Zapatero, Spain “has lost a lot of prestige”, says a Latin American former foreign minister. Podemos, the far-left member of Mr Sánchez’s coalition, is also friendly towards Mr Maduro’s regime. So domestic politics undermines Spanish diplomacy on one of the most important issues in a region it claims is a priority.

 

However, my post is about this casual mention:

But Spain was important in easing visa requirements for the Schengen area for Latin Americans and in clinching a trade agreement between the European Union and Mercosur, the bloc based on Brazil and Argentina.

From hardly any South/Latin Americans, the UK now has loads. Loads of women - lots with dependent children i.e. 8k/head schooling working as low paid cleaners in London.

They crop up all the time, everywhere:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53272408

"I don't speak English and how do you defend yourself in a situation like this?" asks cleaner Claudia Tabares

Claudia Lorena Tabares, who works six part-time cleaning jobs is another worker who lost out on some government support money, because she was not able to be furloughed part-time.

No, the question is - How on earth were you allowed to come into the UK?

The FT had an article a few months back:

https://www.ft.com/content/ffead234-497a-11e9-bbc9-6917dce3dc62

Soon after Lucia arrived in the UK in 2017 from South America, she had what seemed like a lucky break. A woman she met at a hairdresser’s told her there was full-time work available for a company that provided cleaners at Donnington Manor Hotel, a four-star hotel in a Kent village an hour from central London.

Again, its all LA/SAs

From comments:

A popover with more user information
 
1 YEAR AGO
 
We are getting very very full employment in the UK at present in most areas of the country and cleaners have much more choice than other jobs as they can be self employed if they speak enough English and also they can use the various cleaning apps to offer their services if they can afford a mobile phone. So I suspect we need to do more to publicise their other cleaning options if they were to leave the hotels sector.I can't remember if the article mentions illegal immigration or not. If they are from South America are they here with permission or not. If not they should go home. If they do have it then it is not that hard to get alternative cleaning jobs (and the article suggests only the minimum wage as if that is a aproblem - vast numbers of British people work "only" for the minimum wage).
 

Collective mind EnglishRose Most likely these workers have EU passports through Spain, Portugal or Italy which allows a passport if any one of your grandparents or parents came from one of those countries. Which is why they worked in Southern European countries and then moved to UK (and other North European countries) when the crisis hit a few years ago. Ironically, one of the reasons given for these countries suffering so much during the crisis is their rigid labour laws. Under those legal structures, when the economy slowed these people were out of a job, with little availability of part time or contract work. And UK's more flexible labour laws are cited as a reason for (a relatively) fast recovery from the last few global slowdowns/recessions.In my personal opinion, the government should crack down hard on rogue employers but changing the law to EU standards is unlikely to serve us well.

(The journo's comment:)

EnglishRose The majority of the people I met for the piece, while originally from Latin America, held some kind of EU citizenship - usually Spanish. One of them had been in the UK on a work visa before obtaining indefinite leave to remain.

 

So, not only is the UK hosting for a large number of Spanish, Portuguese and Italians , majority of which wont be earning enough to cover the public services used if they have a kids and a non working spouse. But the UK is hosting a large number (most?) of the people they handed out visa/citizenship to.

http://www.lawrs.org.uk/

We are a user-led, feminist and human rights organisation focused on addressing the practical and strategic needs of Latin American migrant women displaced by poverty and violence. Latin Americans are one of the fastest growing ethnic minorities in the UK, but desipite this they remain invisible. Our service users experience significant disadvantage as migrants, as women, and as members of an invisible minority ethnic group in this country.


Founded in 1983, LAWRS’ mission is to “to provide Latin American migrant women with tools to assert our rights, and pursue personal empowerment and social change”. We directly support more than 5,000 women annually through culturally and linguistically specialist advice, information, counselling and psychotherapy, advocacy, development programmes, and workshops.

 

 

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15 hours ago, A17 said:

Yep. Certain European Europhile friends assured me that it would be all smooth sailing for the EU once the UK left - after all it was always "perfidious Albion" who was the stick in the mud. All the other 27 wanted to behave like good Europeans, but it was the English who complained and held back.

The UK acted as a convenient country to hide behind. The frugal four (and others) could pay lip service to being good Europeans, but rely on the UK being the dissenting vote in their favor, meaning that they never really needed to stick their head above the parapet.

 

Its more than he frugal 4.

The other Norther Europeans countries are thinking the same. They are just hiding behind this more vocal four.

Germany is exactly the same but its shut up for the moment. Mainly as Merkels is on the way out and the transition has been messed up, leaving France to pursue French interests, pretending they are European wide interests.

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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/latin-americans-are-one-uks-fastest-growing-groups-so-why-arent-they-recognised

Latin Americans are one of the UK’s fastest-growing groups. So why aren’t they recognised?

Latin Americans have been ignored by politicians, the media and the national census. A new British-born generation is trying to change that. 

Err, because they are here on another EU countries passport and they dont/cant vote.

 

 

 
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8 minutes ago, spyguy said:

There was a recent Bello column about Spain and Latin America.

Spain’s complicated relationship with Latin America

The former colonial power wants to play a useful role, but undermines its own influence

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2020/07/11/spains-complicated-relationship-with-latin-america

Now it may surprise a lot of Europeans that Spain has unilaterally inserted itself as the EUs Mr LA esp. when you consider how crap Spanish Pols are. Some are basically going on a personal limb and causing major problems:

Spain’s biggest diplomatic failure has been over Venezuela’s slide into dictatorship under Nicolás Maduro. It was left to Norway to try to broker an agreement last year between the government and the opposition. Spain is hobbled by the antics of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, a Socialist former prime minister, who claims to be a mediator in Venezuela. The country’s opposition considers him a stooge for Mr Maduro. Because of Mr Zapatero, Spain “has lost a lot of prestige”, says a Latin American former foreign minister. Podemos, the far-left member of Mr Sánchez’s coalition, is also friendly towards Mr Maduro’s regime. So domestic politics undermines Spanish diplomacy on one of the most important issues in a region it claims is a priority.

 

However, my post is about this casual mention:

But Spain was important in easing visa requirements for the Schengen area for Latin Americans and in clinching a trade agreement between the European Union and Mercosur, the bloc based on Brazil and Argentina.

From hardly any South/Latin Americans, the UK now has loads. Loads of women - lots with dependent children i.e. 8k/head schooling working as low paid cleaners in London.

They crop up all the time, everywhere:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53272408

"I don't speak English and how do you defend yourself in a situation like this?" asks cleaner Claudia Tabares

Claudia Lorena Tabares, who works six part-time cleaning jobs is another worker who lost out on some government support money, because she was not able to be furloughed part-time.

No, the question is - How on earth were you allowed to come into the UK?

The FT had an article a few months back:

https://www.ft.com/content/ffead234-497a-11e9-bbc9-6917dce3dc62

Soon after Lucia arrived in the UK in 2017 from South America, she had what seemed like a lucky break. A woman she met at a hairdresser’s told her there was full-time work available for a company that provided cleaners at Donnington Manor Hotel, a four-star hotel in a Kent village an hour from central London.

Again, its all LA/SAs

From comments:

A popover with more user information
 
1 YEAR AGO
 
We are getting very very full employment in the UK at present in most areas of the country and cleaners have much more choice than other jobs as they can be self employed if they speak enough English and also they can use the various cleaning apps to offer their services if they can afford a mobile phone. So I suspect we need to do more to publicise their other cleaning options if they were to leave the hotels sector.I can't remember if the article mentions illegal immigration or not. If they are from South America are they here with permission or not. If not they should go home. If they do have it then it is not that hard to get alternative cleaning jobs (and the article suggests only the minimum wage as if that is a aproblem - vast numbers of British people work "only" for the minimum wage).
 

Collective mind EnglishRose Most likely these workers have EU passports through Spain, Portugal or Italy which allows a passport if any one of your grandparents or parents came from one of those countries. Which is why they worked in Southern European countries and then moved to UK (and other North European countries) when the crisis hit a few years ago. Ironically, one of the reasons given for these countries suffering so much during the crisis is their rigid labour laws. Under those legal structures, when the economy slowed these people were out of a job, with little availability of part time or contract work. And UK's more flexible labour laws are cited as a reason for (a relatively) fast recovery from the last few global slowdowns/recessions.In my personal opinion, the government should crack down hard on rogue employers but changing the law to EU standards is unlikely to serve us well.

(The journo's comment:)

EnglishRose The majority of the people I met for the piece, while originally from Latin America, held some kind of EU citizenship - usually Spanish. One of them had been in the UK on a work visa before obtaining indefinite leave to remain.

 

So, not only is the UK hosting for a large number of Spanish, Portuguese and Italians , majority of which wont be earning enough to cover the public services used if they have a kids and a non working spouse. But the UK is hosting a large number (most?) of the people they handed out visa/citizenship to.

http://www.lawrs.org.uk/

We are a user-led, feminist and human rights organisation focused on addressing the practical and strategic needs of Latin American migrant women displaced by poverty and violence. Latin Americans are one of the fastest growing ethnic minorities in the UK, but desipite this they remain invisible. Our service users experience significant disadvantage as migrants, as women, and as members of an invisible minority ethnic group in this country.


Founded in 1983, LAWRS’ mission is to “to provide Latin American migrant women with tools to assert our rights, and pursue personal empowerment and social change”. We directly support more than 5,000 women annually through culturally and linguistically specialist advice, information, counselling and psychotherapy, advocacy, development programmes, and workshops.

 

 

Most EE cleaners in my area have been replaced by South American’s, so most things here are correct 

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32 minutes ago, spyguy said:

I cannot understand the spanish political problems - they have the best qualified politicians in europe.

https://www.thejournal.ie/mastergate-spain-madrid-3965026-Apr2018/

 

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54 minutes ago, spyguy said:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/latin-americans-are-one-uks-fastest-growing-groups-so-why-arent-they-recognised

Latin Americans are one of the UK’s fastest-growing groups. So why aren’t they recognised?

Latin Americans have been ignored by politicians, the media and the national census. A new British-born generation is trying to change that. 

Err, because they are here on another EU countries passport and they dont/cant vote.

 

 

 

Some of them would have UK citizenship, I knew one refugee who told me that as she got it, she was going back home on holiday.  She was in fear of having to pay rent, which is why she came here!  She had more expensive housing than I could afford - which seemed rather unfair.

Thanks Tony.

Edited by iamnumerate
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23 hours ago, spyguy said:

Smooth running now UK have left.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53461738

Still ongoing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53468554

And this was something that was pitched as an everyone onside deal.

_112526484_eu_grants-nc.png

I like the way France gets in between the two other large European countries and the new ones.

European self interests writ large in a chart.

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5 hours ago, dugsbody said:

Who, where? Post the comments here. 

Non internet friends, so I don't have a written record or exact quotes. But along the lines that I said - "The UK was the state holding back the EU - the others are always in broad agreement".

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1 hour ago, A17 said:

Non internet friends, so I don't have a written record or exact quotes. But along the lines that I said - "The UK was the state holding back the EU - the others are always in broad agreement".

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/23/for-the-eu-to-prosper-britain-must-leave

Quote

But the events of the past month illustrate why there is, rightly, a growing mood in Brussels for a completely different outcome: for the EU to prosper, Britain must leave.

 

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9 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

lol

What's so funny? The present crisis has shown that the EU countries still look after themselves first. That doesn't mean that they will not come to mutual agreements. But the days of relying on the UK to be the one to complain are gone.

Edited by A17
grammar
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17 minutes ago, spyguy said:

The UK’s failure to understand the give and take required means this relationship was always doomed

image.thumb.png.8d531d76e258c1b45764bad541edde3b.png

So the UK's contribution amounted to a lot less than the cost of the customs system we are now having to implement.

Let's take our money back and spend that, and more, on 50,000 civil servants, wouldn't have made such a great slogan. 

 

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13 minutes ago, A17 said:

What's so funny? The present crisis has shown that the EU countries still look after themselves first. That doesn't mean that they will not come to mutual agreements. But the days of relying on the UK to be the one to complain are gone.

I found a link in the Guardian that proved that some people do think that the EU would be better off without us.

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20 minutes ago, A17 said:

What's so funny? The present crisis has shown that the EU countries still look after themselves first. That doesn't mean that they will not come to mutual agreements. But the days of relying on the UK to be the one to complain are gone.

It is funny because you invented some fictitious friends to verify your anecdote.

Also, countries look after their interests? Shocking!

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9 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

It is funny because you invented some fictitious friends to verify your anecdote.

Also, countries look after their interests? Shocking!

I don't need to make up anecdotes to argue on the internet.

My point is that there is/was an attitude that once the UK had left, it would all be plain sailing for the EU. "All" the other countries wanted to progress as good Europeans; it was only the selfish UK who did not understand the give-and-take. EU27ers I know, and the Guardian article show this view. Once the UK had left, there would be a smooth path to full integration. The whole point of the EU is to be above national interests.

Now, as we are seeing, the EU27 are fighting among themselves. The UK could be relied upon to be the dissenting voice at summits. This meant that countries who may have disagreed with the path the EU was taken did not have to raise their concerns in public - the UK would do it for them. This meant that countries could achieve the outcome they wanted, without having to be seen as the stick-in-the-mud. Now that the UK has left, countries are having to find their own voices.

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