dugsbody Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 24/06/2020 at 09:45, IMHAL said: Or perhaps we will laugh at the 52% of leavers who voted to leave our biggest customer without a clear idea of how to replace that trade. What where those people thinking? They don't really care about trade. That was an add-on argument. They cared about ending freedom of movement to stop Europeans living near them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 24/06/2020 at 10:05, Bruce Banner said: A truly annoying poster. Style, avatar and attitude, why do you bother? We've left the EU, you won, we lost, must you constantly goad and mock? Yes of course - he's a self confessed nationalist. Nothing more important than flag waving and poking them. Its 'natural' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, pig said: Yes of course - he's a self confessed nationalist. Nothing more important than flag waving and poking them. Its 'natural' Actually, BJs inane babbling in response to Starmer in yesterday's PMQs. Reminded me of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, jonb2 said: I agree and I've said you cannot fit a micron measure between extreme communism, extreme authoritarianism and extreme fascism. They all end up in the same place. Usually driven by ego-mad despots who are in the last throes of the power addiction curve. An intended side effect is the money system they have built around them. Look at most of them and check out their personal wealth. It's usually mega-huge. It's not really about the old money that was around in Orwell's time. This was mainly a quaint inheritance and quite parochial by comparison to the global oligarchs of today. This might sound quite left-wing, but we have a big problem with the hiding and hoarding of trillions of dollars today. Plus an intricate system to lock out 99.99% of people getting access to it. Hence the .1%.. Conveniently populism is a great tool to distract most of the masses and get them to concentrate on the 'other' - rather than the great heist - the mountains of money extracted from the world for the last 40 years by a handful of greed maggots. We also have the extreme right who are much more of the threat because they are more organised and have actually done terrorist attacks. The extreme left might have aspirations - but they are all mouth and knickers. The extreme right are useful idiots. They are the foot-soldiers with the rallying cry, Used by populist politicians to cause division and sleight of hand diversion. To make the populace madder and madder so that the .1% can keep their fortunes and make even bigger ones. These politicians, like Johnson and Trump, are the staff-sergeants doing the bidding of the oligarchs. Add a pinch of conspiracy theories into the mix and it's such an alluring cocktail of Kool-Aid (WTF is this 5g stuff all about?). I wonder what Orwell would have made of the sight of Johnson driving through a bunch of bricks with the slogan "Get Brexit Done". Like something from a banal, failed pilot of a kids TV show. Like the USA, we deserve better. We have sunk so low in government we cannot see it any more. We have contracted a kind of mad dog rabies that blinds us. Covid just underlines the sickness. The modern right wing is all about greed at the top and anger at the bottom. No vision, no progress, no cooperation, no humanity. No building of a better world. Moreof the same, but worse. The only thing they can do well is create more hate. For me, there's an obvious hierarchy: Hoarding of $$$$$$$$$ ===> Populist politicians ===> Divided, angry populations getting poorer as the people farming breaks down. Some links which should worry us. Never mind your Marxist relative having firearms. An ant compared to a an elephant. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/terror-attacks-far-right-islamist-europe-uk-stanwell-2019-a9581921.html The Neo-Nazi Network https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000k9br Thanks for your thoughtful response. The thing about the far right is that you can spot them a mile way, thanks to good old adolf, we know what makes them tick, the most recent book i read about the nazi period was "travels in the third reich" it is fascinating account of foreigners letters etc about their experience of facism. The thing that comes over most strongly is that people simply did not take the nazi's seriously. Sadly casual antisemitism was widespread in europe at the time, so Hitler was seen as "a bit over the top, but dont worry he part of the establishment really". My own great uncle was in the british division who liberated Belsen, his own response was amazement that British propaganda had actually understated the Nazi's evil. As to the rest of your post, i find it difficult to be sure how bad the billionaires are, afterall they do not eat more than 3 meals a day (as warren Buffet says). No society has ever existed without "rich people" as you say. Soviet Russia had people in it who had access to all the private jets, Dachas and murderous armed guards that any other states do. If you accept we are just a bunch of overevolved apes like i do, it is difficult to see what an ideal human society looks like. The scandinavian social democracies are pretty good, so it is high taxation and good services, i believe in that. However, they also have some seriously rich people, i do not think any society will ever escaped that. The UK is pretty good, it just needs to think sbout the average person a bit more that is all, and turn to science+engineering to solve its problems as it once did. Edited June 25, 2020 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 6 hours ago, jonb2 said: BTW you are right about the far left, all cowards, lead from the back types who will then issue execution orders from their desks but that makes me despise them all the more, no b****s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: BTW you are right about the far left, all cowards, lead from the back types who will then issue execution orders from their desks but that makes me despise them all the more, no b****s. We haven't had a genuinely Left wing govt for more than forty years! H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, zugzwang said: We haven't had a genuinely Left wing govt for more than forty years! H We never had a genuinely far right govt, perhaps we should try that first? Wilson was the last genuine Socialist prime minister, but he was an intensely nationalist PM too. edit to add. and you really do not want one either...believe me Edited June 25, 2020 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 minute ago, debtlessmanc said: We never had a genuinely far right govt, perhaps we should try that first? Wilson was the last genuine Socialist prime minister, but he was an intensely nationalist PM too. We've had a succession of right-wing govts pursuing the same market fundamentalist agenda - privatise, globalise and deregulate - since 1979. Johnson and Cummings are the most recent iteration. It should be evident from the woeful state of the national accounts that we don't need another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Just now, zugzwang said: We've had a succession of right-wing govts pursuing the same market fundamentalist agenda - privatise, globalise and deregulate - since 1979. Johnson and Cummings are the most recent iteration. It should be evident from the woeful state of the national accounts that we don't need another. We were 5/6th world economy in 1975 we still are, govt debt is 85% of GDP, France is 100% and Italy 130% Those guys are total Clowns, this is just evidence that that a country's wealth has nothing to do with it govt. eg Southerns europes problems are largelly about that fact that the average person can and does avoid paying all their taxes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 minute ago, debtlessmanc said: We were 5/6th world economy in 1975 we still are, govt debt is 85% of GDP, France is 100% and Italy 130% Those guys are total Clowns, this is just evidence that that a country's wealth has nothing to do with it govt. eg Southerns europes problems are largelly about that fact that the average person can and does avoid paying all their taxes! Private sector debt is the real threat. Private sector debt caused the GFC. Govt debt can be rolled over almost indefinitely at essentially zero cost. Q4 2019 private sector debt was 163.9% of GDP in the UK, 108.4% in Italy, 114.2% in Germany, and France 215.1%. Those numbers will be very much worse now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 7 hours ago, jonb2 said: I agree and I've said you cannot fit a micron measure between extreme communism, extreme authoritarianism and extreme fascism. They all end up in the same place. Usually driven by ego-mad despots who are in the last throes of the power addiction curve. An intended side effect is the money system they have built around them. Look at most of them and check out their personal wealth. It's usually mega-huge. It's not really about the old money that was around in Orwell's time. This was mainly a quaint inheritance and quite parochial by comparison to the global oligarchs of today. This might sound quite left-wing, but we have a big problem with the hiding and hoarding of trillions of dollars today. Plus an intricate system to lock out 99.99% of people getting access to it. Hence the .1%.. Conveniently populism is a great tool to distract most of the masses and get them to concentrate on the 'other' - rather than the great heist - the mountains of money extracted from the world for the last 40 years by a handful of greed maggots. We also have the extreme right who are much more of the threat because they are more organised and have actually done terrorist attacks. The extreme left might have aspirations - but they are all mouth and knickers. The extreme right are useful idiots. They are the foot-soldiers with the rallying cry, Used by populist politicians to cause division and sleight of hand diversion. To make the populace madder and madder so that the .1% can keep their fortunes and make even bigger ones. These politicians, like Johnson and Trump, are the staff-sergeants doing the bidding of the oligarchs. Add a pinch of conspiracy theories into the mix and it's such an alluring cocktail of Kool-Aid (WTF is this 5g stuff all about?). I wonder what Orwell would have made of the sight of Johnson driving through a bunch of bricks with the slogan "Get Brexit Done". Like something from a banal, failed pilot of a kids TV show. Like the USA, we deserve better. We have sunk so low in government we cannot see it any more. We have contracted a kind of mad dog rabies that blinds us. Covid just underlines the sickness. The modern right wing is all about greed at the top and anger at the bottom. No vision, no progress, no cooperation, no humanity. No building of a better world. Moreof the same, but worse. The only thing they can do well is create more hate. For me, there's an obvious hierarchy: Hoarding of $$$$$$$$$ ===> Populist politicians ===> Divided, angry populations getting poorer as the people farming breaks down. Some links which should worry us. Never mind your Marxist relative having firearms. An ant compared to a an elephant. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/terror-attacks-far-right-islamist-europe-uk-stanwell-2019-a9581921.html The Neo-Nazi Network https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000k9br Can't help but think its a particular strand of dull but toxic male psychology (psychopathy?) thats at play there. Copy paste jihadis. Manufacturing disgust/contempt however is more the trade of populism and nationalism. Hence the obsession with weirdo fantasies about paedophillia, Soros, Gates 5G and so on that are signs of contemporary RW brainwashing. You see it. creeping into debates here often enough. I'm not so concerned about 'government' or the politicians - yesterday Starmer evicerated an almost bizarre Johnson again. Its really to do with the section of the duped public, albeit shrinking, who are still happy to put up with a hopeless prime minister and the lack of leadership and accountability in the Jenrick and Cummings scandal. Without them the government can't get away with their rolling disaster - its interesting that they are obsessed with SM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Bruce Banner said: Actually, BJs inane babbling in response to Starmer in yesterday's PMQs. Reminded me of him. Was embarrassing yesterday - was wincing at Johnsons performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 3 hours ago, zugzwang said: We've had a succession of right-wing govts pursuing the same market fundamentalist agenda - privatise, globalise and deregulate - since 1979. Johnson and Cummings are the most recent iteration. It should be evident from the woeful state of the national accounts that we don't need another. Now they just bend over for the US: https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/britain-offers-back-down-tech-194725889.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, pig said: Was embarrassing yesterday - was wincing at Johnsons performance. Yes indeed! Seriously, anybody who has not seen it should watch it. If it had been a sixth form debate, Johnson would have been ridiculed for the rest of his school days. It wasn't just that Starmer owned him, it was that Doris simply lost the plot. Casting around, trying to disguise his panic as disbelief and repeating lies that he must have known he was about to get owned on, it was like watching a shouty pissed bar bore. I very much like the parts when his lies feed undefended goals to his opponent. Go on. - watch it! Go to 1.11 and enjoy. One of the best bits comes early on at 3.22. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 (edited) According to the latest poll 57% of the UK population would vote to join the EU vs 35% against, a huge 22% lead. I am sceptical the lead so big as other polls have it around 5%. We need more polls to see whether there has been a substantial shift of the opinion poll regarding the EU membership recently. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-years-after-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html Edited June 26, 2020 by slawek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 15 minutes ago, slawek said: According to the latest poll 57% of the UK population would vote to join the EU vs 35% against, a huge 22% lead. I am sceptical the lead so big as other polls have it around 5%. We need more polls to see whether there has been a substantial shift of the opinion poll regarding the EU membership recently. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-years-after-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html Your scepticism is unfounded: "A lot of people, regardless of their preference for leave or remain, believe that the referendum was a democratic vote, regardless of what they think of the outcome. So in the words of the PM, they might agree that we needed to get Brexit done," says Will Jennings, Professor in Politics at the University of Southampton. "Asking people hypothetically how they would vote if the referendum were happening now, you might get an interesting answer. But it is a fundamentally different question." Some on this forum reflect this. They voted Remain but accept that we voted out and out we must go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 50 minutes ago, crouch said: Your scepticism is unfounded: "A lot of people, regardless of their preference for leave or remain, believe that the referendum was a democratic vote, regardless of what they think of the outcome. So in the words of the PM, they might agree that we needed to get Brexit done," says Will Jennings, Professor in Politics at the University of Southampton. "Asking people hypothetically how they would vote if the referendum were happening now, you might get an interesting answer. But it is a fundamentally different question." Some on this forum reflect this. They voted Remain but accept that we voted out and out we must go. I am sceptical because the size of the lead not the fact people want to join the EU. The poll is an outlier at the moment. If 20% lead is confirmed then Brexit is definitely dead, even before people will have a chance to fully experience all the negatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, slawek said: I am sceptical because the size of the lead not the fact people want to join the EU. The poll is an outlier at the moment. If 20% lead is confirmed then Brexit is definitely dead, even before people will have a chance to fully experience all the negatives. All of these polls show one thing you seem unable to acknowledge: that there is very deep disquiet about the EU. Even after over four years 35% would still vote to leave the EU. This disquiet is both fundamental and of long standing; it is not a blip; error; based on lies; propaganda... And what does it mean to say that "Brexit is definitely dead"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 1 hour ago, crouch said: All of these polls show one thing you seem unable to acknowledge: that there is very deep disquiet about the EU. Even after over four years 35% would still vote to leave the EU. This disquiet is both fundamental and of long standing; it is not a blip; error; based on lies; propaganda... And what does it mean to say that "Brexit is definitely dead"? Of course...65% want to stay. About the same percentage as the original referendum in the 80's. Seems that leavers have dwindlled from 52% to 35% ... not a good result is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Of course...65% want to stay. About the same percentage as the original referendum in the 80's. Seems that leavers have dwindlled from 52% to 35% ... not a good result is it. A poll and a referendum are two different things. What the historical record - based on the referendums - show is that Euroscepticism has increased over the years which is consistent with long term polling results in the UK carried out on a consistent basis by British Social Attitudes. The implication of this data is meant to draw the conclusion that we really, truly, definitely and positively wish to remain in the EU but, as my quote shows, the poll is not about that but whether we would join now. However you cut these numbers it still leaves a substantial percentage who do not want membership of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, crouch said: The implication of this data is meant to draw the conclusion that we really, truly, definitely and positively wish to remain in the EU but, as my quote shows, the poll is not about that but whether we would join now. Of course, you can only ever have a poll or referendum that reflects the mood of the day....and now a significant majority would wish to join/remain in the EU. 3 minutes ago, crouch said: However you cut these numbers it still leaves a substantial percentage who do not want membership of the EU. Why should I care about that 35% when the 48% have been ignored? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayphil Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 3 hours ago, crouch said: Your scepticism is unfounded: "A lot of people, regardless of their preference for leave or remain, believe that the referendum was a democratic vote, regardless of what they think of the outcome. So in the words of the PM, they might agree that we needed to get Brexit done," says Will Jennings, Professor in Politics at the University of Southampton. "Asking people hypothetically how they would vote if the referendum were happening now, you might get an interesting answer. But it is a fundamentally different question." Some on this forum reflect this. They voted Remain but accept that we voted out and out we must go. I'll agree with you, I'm a firm remainer, but I accept it was voted for, guess I gotta suck it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, Grayphil said: I'll agree with you, I'm a firm remainer, but I accept it was voted for, guess I gotta suck it up Moving from 52% to 35% in favour of leave does not look to me like the settled will of the people. I expect that the real will of the people will emerge/settle when it becomes clear what brexit actually means....give it a couple of years and we should have a pretty good idea if people got what they thought they voted for....and more importantly....if what they thought they wanted is any good compared to what they had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 23 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Of course, you can only ever have a poll or referendum that reflects the mood of the day....and now a significant majority would wish to join/remain in the EU. Are you saying that we should now rejoin the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, crouch said: However you cut these numbers it still leaves a substantial percentage who do not want membership of the EU. I wonder if we could make both sides happy by pretending we've left the EU but silently rejoin, keeping everything as it was before we left. My guess is those people wouldn't actually notice, so win/win. Edited June 26, 2020 by dugsbody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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