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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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10 hours ago, rollover said:

 

One of the Brexit dividends.

 

10 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

A disaster in the making, we will end up paying a fortune to resurrect a failed company trying and no doubt eventually failing to compete with Elon Musks 12,000 strong Starlink system. 

What makes it even more ridiculous is we don't need a GPS system. By the end o the year the world will have 4 open GPS systems, the chance of us upsetting, at the same time, all of the US, EU, China and Russia enough for them to withdraw access must be vanishingly unlikely for even this government.    

Makes me cringe to say it ... but this is one of those 'experts' that Gove was on about.

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/bleddyn-bowen-b452a336

Spacepower theory
Space warfare
Space security and policy
Strategic theory
Seapower theory
Astropolitics
Strategic studies
Strategic theory
UK-EU astropolitics
Modern warfare

All minor league academic ********. No technical back ground or experience. 100% social science. No military connections.

Hes more Star Wars fan than warrior.

The UK hosts SST, which was to be the major contractor in the European effort.

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8 minutes ago, spyguy said:

We are a democracy.

What is your suggestion?

 

In this case, a second, or confirmatory referendum.

Te late Screaming Lord Sutch would probably have got more votes than Swinson.

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1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Just the UK?

At least the UK has something that resembles a multi party democratic state.

The French seem have given up.

Italy gave up sometime in the early 90s.

 

Incorrect. But you've demonstrated my point nicely, which is why I've given up. You can have the country you want with these shysters.

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7 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Incorrect. But you've demonstrated my point nicely, which is why I've given up. You can have the country you want with these shysters.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Socrates, few 100 years before Jesus (madeup) was born.

And the miserable old bint a few doors down the road.

The gripes about Pols are as old as they are the same.

However my point stands. The UK still has party politics. You may or may not like.

Italy, in particular, really does not, at least since the late 80s. France appears to have gone the same way.

They had given up on national politics, hoping Europe  would fix everything. Now they've given up on European Pols.

Italy is sort of really dangerous at the mo. Or would be if they had young people and an army.

As it stands, the few young people Italy have are flooding into the UK. And this is v recent. When me n mrsdpy hooked up, recent I,e not after WW2 italians were rare. You had a few in London or Unis. Today there are loads of young Italian families whove upped sticks with kids.

When I chat to Mrs spys (italian) relatives n friends, and these are longish chats rather some TV sound bite, they *all* want to go to UK or US or Oz/NZ or Canada. You get the odd one wanting to do some sort writer in Paris, more dreamer than practical. And these are all 100% bilingual French-Italian

 

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@spyguy

Sorry, your stories are not correct about French and Italian politics. It's a nice narrative, just not true. And that is why you can have the UK the way you like it, liars at the top, liars all the way down.

No problem.

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2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

What many people forget is that one of the main reasons we got fascism is that well meaning sensible Italians and Germans voted for Mussolini and Hitler out of fear of the far left and communism. By 1933 Stalin's purges were in full flow but no one imagined that the "alternative" could be as bad. Before you start trying to scare people with the far right bogeyman you have to consider what is really more likly, the actual election of Hitler mk2 or that society will create something as bad out of fear of that.

as to the oligarch stuff,  rather than pointing out that humans can be ghastly to humans (even the bible Is hot on that) perhaps propose some vision of a society that avoids it without creating worse problems ?

What I find wierd about the rabidly pro Remainers (I voted Remain, if makes any difference) is how little they understand different European countries.

They sort of have a Sunday supplement / Rick Stein view of europeans - pootling long between bistros, buying buckets of rough wine from the farmer. When in fact they understand the countries even less than they do Warren from Middlesbrough who's street is now 80% EEers.

Living in modern day mainland Eutope ishard - if you are not connected to some form of public sector money pipe.

Analyse of Nazi fascism tends to be all 6th form socialist worker, or call be Alan, politics lecturer at some low end regional poly.

Fascism has its roots in a form Italian civil society where everyone now n again  give up on individualism/family and take a hard consistent line. Places like Florence weren't built by everyone having a say so.

Il Duce tried to channel that for his mumbo jumbo ********. Adolf copied him, mixing in his own mumbo jumbo.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

What I find wierd about the rabidly pro Remainers (I voted Remain, if makes any difference) is how little they understand different European countries.

They sort of have a Sunday supplement / Rick Stein view of europeans - pootling long between bistros, buying buckets of rough wine from the farmer. When in fact they understand the countries even less than they do Warren from Middlesbrough who's street is now 80% EEers.

Living in modern day mainland Eutope ishard - if you are not connected to some form of public sector money pipe.

Analyse of Nazi fascism tends to be all 6th form socialist worker, or call be Alan, politics lecturer at some low end regional poly.

Fascism has its roots in a form Italian civil society where everyone now n again  give up on individualism/family and take a hard consistent line. Places like Florence weren't built by everyone having a say so.

Il Duce tried to channel that for his mumbo jumbo ********. Adolf copied him, mixing in his own mumbo jumbo.

 

I'm married to a French woman. She grew up on the border of Italy. I think I have as much an understanding as you do. And I know enough from your history of posting that you're very liberal with your embellishment. 

So no, my view of French (and to a degree) Italian politics doesn't match yours.

And even that is just a usual way of distracting from the main point. What French and Italians do is up to them. We were talking about giving up on the current UK politics. People have chosen to elect a clown who gets up on stage and lies to their faces. Everyone knows it. But they do it because he makes "harmless" jokes about minority groups and who can't relate to that eh?

Nope, I'm out, you guys win. Lets see where Boris and his crew get you.

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8 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

@spyguy

Sorry, your stories are not correct about French and Italian politics. It's a nice narrative, just not true. And that is why you can have the UK the way you like it, liars at the top, liars all the way down.

No problem.

Err there is no mainstream left or right in France now.

Go back 20 years. The three largest parties then  barely register now. Macron had to make up his party a few months before the election, to fight FN.

Italys politics is a total incoherent mess. It wasnt great in the 80s. Even worse now.

 

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2 hours ago, spyguy said:

Ah one these arguments.

If you want to know what Orwell thinks about Brexit, Boris etc than you have to ask him.

You can't as hes dead.

You might as well speculate about whether Genghis Khan would have driven an Audi over a Honda

Following that argument - you have no worries about painting and urinating on Churchill's statue then. He's dead - doesn't matter.

Pity Johnson venerates him too. Makes him unfit for office. Hero worshipping a dead person deserves jail.

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15 hours ago, crouch said:

 A secret plan by cliques within countries, not competition between countries themselves which is, as you say, geopolitics.

Well that's not my argument. Mine is a real thing, not just a local church hall meeting among WI members, subverting the jam with saccharin rather than sugar.

As so often, you conveniently ignore the point I was making. Any evidence that counters your views is automatically shredded before it meets your brain. Or if the shredder is broken, it's put into a 'don't open for 50 years archive' and sent down to the basement under the main basement.

Edited by jonb2

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7 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

As so often, you conveniently ignore the point I was making. Any evidence that counters your views is automatically shredded before it meets your brain. Or if the shredder is broken, it's put into a 'don't open for 50 years archive' and sent down to the basement under the main basement.

You're completely wrong for the simple reason that I don't have any views about this so the "shredder" doesn't exist.

What I'm saying is this turgid, lurid, paranoiac, "reds under the beds" conspiracy theory argument seems unbalanced to me to be in the sense of "she protesteth too much"; too much hyperbole. 

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3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

What many people forget is that one of the main reasons we got fascism is that well meaning sensible Italians and Germans voted for Mussolini and Hitler out of fear of the far left and communism. By 1933 Stalin's purges were in full flow but no one imagined that the "alternative" could be as bad. Before you start trying to scare people with the far right bogeyman you have to consider what is really more likly, the actual election of Hitler mk2 or that society will create something as bad out of fear of that.

as to the oligarch stuff,  rather than pointing out that humans can be ghastly to humans (even the bible Is hot on that) perhaps propose some vision of a society that avoids it without creating worse problems ?

Who cares?

I said that Fascism, Authoritarianism  and Communism ends up in exactly the same place. The only difference being the uniforms of the despot and his enforcers.

Oligarchs. It's not simply about the worst of human nature being a status quo since the beginning of time. It's the current system is supporting a lightning speed increase in corruption and greed. Globally. A massive Dyson sucking all the wealth and ensuring a system that doesn't let any of it leak.

As to a better system. There are already models operating. Far from faultless, they don't seem to have riots on the streets, sell arms to Saudi Arabia, the worst death rate in Europe, or the world (USA). They don't have a heart made from dollar paper. They don't need to run the country as though it's a TV game show. I could continue - but I've said all it before. The USA and the UK are falling fast.

We simply have to look at some other countries. Which, despite their foibles, are governing better than we are. The Scandinavian set comes to mind obviously.

So, as a start, we need to get better politicians rather than this Chamberlain appeasement attitude - "... well they all lie and are corrupt". No this lot do it on steroids and it ain't good enough.

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2 minutes ago, crouch said:

You're completely wrong for the simple reason that I don't have any views about this so the "shredder" doesn't exist.

What I'm saying is this turgid, lurid, paranoiac, "reds under the beds" conspiracy theory argument seems unbalanced to me to be in the sense of "she protesteth too much"; too much hyperbole. 

See, you've done it again. It's as far from 'reds under the beds' as can be.

There are no communists here. Just endless evidence of dangerous subversion with mega piles of cash behind it.

Or do you think things like Cambridge Analytica was just a reality show with a toothpaste sponsor? Do you believe Trump? Do you think Murdoch is just nice guy who likes to buy newspapers because of scantily clad women? Do you think the endless deaths of Russian opponents to Putin are merely lottery coincidences? Or the Panama Papers was a made-up smear?

Come back to me when you have read a few of the books I linked to and seen at least three of the videos I posted.

Then we can talk.

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UK party politics? I fear it’s more of a tribal politics. Also, a mature democracy is a place where parties have a robust base of associates, plus contacts with other bodies of the civil society. Honestly, nobody in Westminster gives a **** about what the Unions, Industrial Associations and professional bodies have to say. The Parliament is a bubble where the latest twitter trend or headlines on newspapers dictated the agenda. 

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30 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Following that argument - you have no worries about painting and urinating on Churchill's statue then. He's dead - doesn't matter.

Pity Johnson venerates him too. Makes him unfit for office. Hero worshipping a dead person deserves jail.

Orwell was a writer.

You can read what hes written and make your own conclusions.

Hes not alive to give you his opinion on contemporary matters.

Where on earth did statues come into it?

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2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

See, you've done it again. It's as far from 'reds under the beds' as can be.

There are no communists here. Just endless evidence of dangerous subversion with mega piles of cash behind it.

Or do you think things like Cambridge Analytica was just a reality show with a toothpaste sponsor? Do you believe Trump? Do you think Murdoch is just nice guy who likes to buy newspapers because of scantily clad women? Do you think the endless deaths of Russian opponents to Putin are merely lottery coincidences? Or the Panama Papers was a made-up smear?

Come back to me when you have read a few of the books I linked to and seen at least three of the videos I posted.

Then we can talk.

Apart from saying that folk can be nasty with each other and that power and money corrupts, two aspects of human nature since the year dot, what precisely is your point?

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46 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I'm married to a French woman. She grew up on the border of Italy. I think I have as much an understanding as you do. And I know enough from your history of posting that you're very liberal with your embellishment. 

So no, my view of French (and to a degree) Italian politics doesn't match yours.

And even that is just a usual way of distracting from the main point. What French and Italians do is up to them. We were talking about giving up on the current UK politics. People have chosen to elect a clown who gets up on stage and lies to their faces. Everyone knows it. But they do it because he makes "harmless" jokes about minority groups and who can't relate to that eh?

Nope, I'm out, you guys win. Lets see where Boris and his crew get you.

Do you live in France or the UK - you dont really need to answer that.

We live in the UK.

Mrs spy would struggle to get her current job outside of her home town. And then theres a a long queue.

Shed not bother trying to get her job in a different Italian region or, worse, France.

Despite what you may or may not think, Anglo economies offer a broadly meritocratic approach to employment/people. Bar Germany ( which has other hurdles in the way) and the Northern/Scandi countries, that's not how the rest of Europe operates.

Mainland Europe is mainly closed,  pretty and insular. The UK really isn't. Sure, a bit monolingual but open.

On a side note, the fallout of Wirecard in Europe is going to be huge. Germany was meant to provide the financial sector to allow Europe to grow and compete with US and Asia. Having a regulator who, when faced with evidence, bans short selling and initiated criminal proceedings against an FT journalist....

 

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12 minutes ago, Neapolitan said:

UK party politics? I fear it’s more of a tribal politics. Also, a mature democracy is a place where parties have a robust base of associates, plus contacts with other bodies of the civil society. Honestly, nobody in Westminster gives a **** about what the Unions, Industrial Associations and professional bodies have to say. The Parliament is a bubble where the latest twitter trend or headlines on newspapers dictated the agenda. 

Unions are still struggling to leave 1950s.

Industrial associations?? 

Professional bodies tend to restrictive, **** covering cliques.

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12 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Orwell was a writer.

You can read what hes written and make your own conclusions.

Hes not alive to give you his opinion on contemporary matters.

Where on earth did statues come into it?

You said it yourself.

DPLDM.

Dead people's lives don't matter.

But there you go quoting Socrates. Who gives a shit what he thinks - he's dead.

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13 minutes ago, crouch said:

Apart from saying that folk can be nasty with each other and that power and money corrupts, two aspects of human nature since the year dot, what precisely is your point?

OK. One last time. Since I have made my point many times.

So ...

Mr Greedy Bobble, who has lots of money and is a teeny-weeny bit nasty - is living in a castle which magically allows him to get much more money and get a lot more nasty. He only has to wish. And Billy the Banker and Patty the Politician will make sure the castle has the magic power to fulfil every craving Mr Greedy Bobble has. His friends, Billy and Patty simply take all the magic from the people of the village below and give it to Greedy. In the past it's taken years to harvest all the magic from the people, but hey have found a way to take all the magic in one night. But are working on a system to take it from all the villages in the Enchanted Kingdom in less than an hour. This makes Mr Greedy Bobble very happy and he will live happily for ever.

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21 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Do you live in France or the UK - you dont really need to answer that.

We live in the UK.

<snip>

None of what you said is relevant to my original post.

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1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

Who cares?

I said that Fascism, Authoritarianism  and Communism ends up in exactly the same place. The only difference being the uniforms of the despot and his enforcers.

Oligarchs. It's not simply about the worst of human nature being a status quo since the beginning of time. It's the current system is supporting a lightning speed increase in corruption and greed. Globally. A massive Dyson sucking all the wealth and ensuring a system that doesn't let any of it leak.

As to a better system. There are already models operating. Far from faultless, they don't seem to have riots on the streets, sell arms to Saudi Arabia, the worst death rate in Europe, or the world (USA). They don't have a heart made from dollar paper. They don't need to run the country as though it's a TV game show. I could continue - but I've said all it before. The USA and the UK are falling fast.

We simply have to look at some other countries. Which, despite their foibles, are governing better than we are. The Scandinavian set comes to mind obviously.

So, as a start, we need to get better politicians rather than this Chamberlain appeasement attitude - "... well they all lie and are corrupt". No this lot do it on steroids and it ain't good enough.

okay so lets agree that the scandinavian social democracies are good, try watching this, it is only 15mins

 

The guy makes the point that actually not only do their societies provide a good "safety net" they actually produce a large number of high net worth individuals with good social mobility he then goes on to link that to high minimum wage, strong unions and good education systems. Crucially though he makes the point that the systems that fail at this are characterised by people doing low paid jobs that are not only unrewarding but could be mechanised

to get back to the point of the thread, this is what i do not get about the modern left, they do not make the straightforward (to me) connection that enabling people to import cheap labour via freedom of movement to essentially not mechanise jobs or pay locals enough to do, simply drives divisions and makes our society more unequal. If the inequality in the other countries is the result of cultural practices (Tax evasion, corrupution) then it will never be solved by having the sensible people leave. It is a practice that is straight out of the naked capitalism rulebook and a form of colonialism. This would have been obvious to eg Harold Wilson, probably our most left wing ever PM. To me the left are being remorseless deceived by the "Xenophobia" trope and absolutely refuse to see it. The average labour voter of old though are not so easily fooled...

 

Edited by debtlessmanc

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12 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

to get back to the point of the thread, this is what i do not get about the modern left, they do not make the straightforward (to me) connection that enabling people to import cheap labour via freedom of movement to essentially not mechanise jobs or pay locals enough to do, simply drives divisions and makes our society more unequal. If the inequality in the other countries is the result of cultural practices (Tax evasion, corrupution) then it will never be solved by having the sensible people leave. It is a practice that is straight out of the naked capitalism rulebook and a form of colonialism.

This is a common sleight of hand that brexiters use. You pretend to care so deeply about other countries that you want to stop their citizens having the same rights you do, a right to make a better life by relocating. Unfortunately, brexiters can't keep their arguments in sync because on the other hand you advocate a points based system where we only take the best from those other countries.

I suppose if you wanted to apply that, we had better apply the same in the UK where the South East of England is robbing all the other regions of their citizens and driving down wages in London, increasing cost of housing and putting pressure on schools and hospitals. We better end freedom of movement within the UK to solve that problem, it seems to be the only way.

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24 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

okay so lets agree that the scandinavian social democsracies are good, try watching this, it is only 15mins

 

The guy makes the point that actually not only do their societies provide a good "safety net" they actually produce a large number of high net worth individuals with good social mobility he then goes on to link that to high minimum wage, strong unions and good education systems. Crucially though he makes the point that the systems that fail at this are characterised by people doing low paid jobs that are not only unrewarding but could be mechanised

to get back to the point of the thread, this is what i do not get about the modern left, they do not make the straightforward (to me) connection that enabling people to import cheap labour via freedom of movement to essentially not mechanise jobs or pay locals enough to do, simply drives divisions and makes our society more unequal. If the inequality in the other countries is the result of cultural practices (Tax evasion, corrupution) then it will never be solved by having the sensible people leave. It is a practice that is straight out of the naked capitalism rulebook and a form of colonialism. This would have been obvious to eg Harold Wilson, probably our most left wing ever PM. To me the left are being remorseless decieved by the "Xenophobia" trope and absolutely refuse to see it. The average labour voter of old though are not so easily fooled...

 

What is the Modern Left? When did this entity import cheap labour via freedom of movement, or refuse to mechanise jobs, or not support a living wage for all workers including locals??

Immigration allows the economy to continue to expand even after the constraint of full employment is reached. The controlling mechanism - a market mechanism, no less - is excess demand in the labour market across the business cycle.

Edited by zugzwang

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  • 395 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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