Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[winkie]

17 minutes ago, yodigo said:

No one that I knew of, except the Kibbutz, as that was "trendy". 

https://www.workaway.info/en/host/129684518125

Then there were student swaps, work on a farm if preferred......all good fun, great experience and fun had by all.

[pig]

46 minutes ago, yodigo said:

Here's a little tale to put you to bed.

Years ago I worked with "furreners". 

They knew the full workings of the benefit and tax system, to their advantage.

They knew the "furrener" criminals had come over too, they knew who they were. They didn't like that one bit.

They lived in the "enriched" part of town. They hated it.

They didn't like the "people of peace".

One had moved out and wouldn't go back even for free rent.

Oppss, "furreners" in the UK can be Xenophobic.

Night night, sweet dreams.

What ? ! No rainbow farting ? !

Its morning over here

[kzb]

2 hours ago, winkie said:

Years ago it was not unusual for young people from the UK people to go crop picking in Europe, even avocado picking on kibbutz in Israel .......they had a great time and got to meet others like them, finish at 4pm and enjoy weather and local atmosphere.....like they did helping out during skiing season.

When people come and help us to pick crops they will live on the farm in static caravans on in farm accommodation......farms sometimes miles away from anywhere.

As you might recall, last year I attempted to track vegetable/fruit picker listings on Jobcentre Plus.

Never found more than a handful of such jobs advertised in the whole country.  Looked under different search terms like "agricultural workers" and suchlike as well.

Supposedly we need to import 55,000 agricultural seasonal workers.   But only about 14 get advertised on Jobcentre Plus.

If I wanted a job like this I wouldn't know how to apply.  Round here there are lots of young people hanging about not at work, and I guess they wouldn't know how to apply either.  

Perhaps they're all signed off with ADHD or something, but surely honest labour out in the countryside might do them some good.

 

[winkie]

12 minutes ago, kzb said:

As you might recall, last year I attempted to track vegetable/fruit picker listings on Jobcentre Plus.

Never found more than a handful of such jobs advertised in the whole country.  Looked under different search terms like "agricultural workers" and suchlike as well.

Supposedly we need to import 55,000 agricultural seasonal workers.   But only about 14 get advertised on Jobcentre Plus.

If I wanted a job like this I wouldn't know how to apply.  Round here there are lots of young people hanging about not at work, and I guess they wouldn't know how to apply either.  

Perhaps they're all signed off with ADHD or something, but surely honest labour out in the countryside might do them some good.

 

Best speak to the growers......most people live nowhere near the fields that require picking at short notice, pick up and drop off might be required....... farm machinery now doing a lot of the work these days, very clever pieces of kit.

[kzb]

4 hours ago, winkie said:

Best speak to the growers......most people live nowhere near the fields that require picking at short notice, pick up and drop off might be required....... farm machinery now doing a lot of the work these days, very clever pieces of kit.

Don't worry I'm not feeling the need to go labouring in the fields.  I've got enough of that with my own garden.

However what you are now saying is you don't think all of these 55,000 EU agricultural workers are really necessary ?

[Confusion of VIs]

5 hours ago, winkie said:

Best speak to the growers......most people live nowhere near the fields that require picking at short notice, pick up and drop off might be required....... farm machinery now doing a lot of the work these days, very clever pieces of kit.

Those clever machines a very capital intensive, so not used much in the UK. It's more cost effective just to buy in the produce from abroad and use the land for a simple to harvest lower added value product; as is already happening. 

I suppose we could let the farmers cover this land with solar panels, that would give them a decent income and be much better for the environment than than yet more monoculture fields.

 

NB Back in the 2000s (while I was working at the HO) there was a trial of getting jobcentre claimants to work on the fields but even though the HO picked up the wage bill the farmers ended the trial early. Saying that even at free it was losing them money owing to unreliability and low quality/productivity.   

Have been round this loop before with kzb, but as others have poiinted out he seems to have the memory of a goldfish.

Post Brexit we are offering EU workers visas but the planning, hassle and cost involved makes the UK less appealing than working in another EU state.

 

 

[msi]

'Brexit trade checks will cost me £200,000 a year

[kzb]

8 hours ago, msi said:

'Brexit trade checks will cost me £200,000 a year

Let's imagine an alternative universe, one in which these border checks already exist. 

Then the Tories say they are removing them.

In this universe, I know for a fact you would be on here decrying the removal of border checks on at least two grounds:  the first, it puts our biosecurity at risk, allowing in pests, diseases and substandard foods;  second, you would be outraged on behalf of our poor farmers, who would now face competition from other countries.

Back in our universe and from your link:

Tom Bradshaw, president of the National Farmers Union, said the group welcomed the checks "as a way of safeguarding the nation's food safety".

 

 

[Dyson Fury]

28 minutes ago, kzb said:

In this universe, I know for a fact you would be on here decrying the removal of border checks on at least two grounds:  the first, it puts our biosecurity at risk, allowing in pests, diseases and substandard foods; 

I read an article in a Dutch newspaper recently.  There is a huge problem in Europe with the spread of plant diseases and pests (fungal diseases, invasive crop-eating insects, moths/insects with larvae which burrow beneath tree bark and harm the tree, etc).  Some of this is due to climate change (species from Southern Europe moving northwards following warmer temperatures) but there is absolutely no doubt it is made much worse by border-free trade in plants and related products (disease-infected plants, pest-contaminated soil, insect-infested timber, etc).  This is of huge importance in NL, which has such a major horticulture industry.  The inescapable conclusion was that phytosanitary border controls are going to have to be introduced by NL for imports from other European countries, and the rules of the EU Single Market can go whistle. 

[winkie]

22 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Those clever machines a very capital intensive, so not used much in the UK. It's more cost effective just to buy in the produce from abroad and use the land for a simple to harvest lower added value product; as is already happening. 

I suppose we could let the farmers cover this land with solar panels, that would give them a decent income and be much better for the environment than than yet more monoculture fields.

 

NB Back in the 2000s (while I was working at the HO) there was a trial of getting jobcentre claimants to work on the fields but even though the HO picked up the wage bill the farmers ended the trial early. Saying that even at free it was losing them money owing to unreliability and low quality/productivity.   

Have been round this loop before with kzb, but as others have poiinted out he seems to have the memory of a goldfish.

Post Brexit we are offering EU workers visas but the planning, hassle and cost involved makes the UK less appealing than working in another EU state.

 

 

Agree with you completely, but we should be growing more food but that will involve fertiliser, pesticides and herbicides, nimbys wouldn't want that, already we have fewer insects flying about in 60s and 70s go out in car and they would be splattered all over windscreen.....if Europeans want work picking fruit and veg there is plentiful of work for them all over Europe where there is an abundance of fresh food everywhere.......we as a nation grow very few crops to eat on our land, grass for grazing cows and sheep, meat and milk... silage, turnips, clover, hay, rapeseed, winter wheat etc....money being paid to land owners to plant trees and wild flowers at edge of empty of crops that humans eat fields....

[kzb]

29 minutes ago, Dyson Fury said:

I read an article in a Dutch newspaper recently.  There is a huge problem in Europe with the spread of plant diseases and pests (fungal diseases, invasive crop-eating insects, moths/insects with larvae which burrow beneath tree bark and harm the tree, etc).  Some of this is due to climate change (species from Southern Europe moving northwards following warmer temperatures) but there is absolutely no doubt it is made much worse by border-free trade in plants and related products (disease-infected plants, pest-contaminated soil, insect-infested timber, etc).  This is of huge importance in NL, which has such a major horticulture industry.  The inescapable conclusion was that phytosanitary border controls are going to have to be introduced by NL for imports from other European countries, and the rules of the EU Single Market can go whistle. 

Dutch elm disease arrived in the UK from pot plants imported into garden centres.  I don't think it's the only one either.

[winkie]

7 minutes ago, kzb said:

Dutch elm disease arrived in the UK from pot plants imported into garden centres.  I don't think it's the only one either.

No amount of checks will stop disease spreading from country.......birds bring in disease, comes on the wind, on shoes, tyers, suitcases.......COVID 19 got everywhere really quickly, mad cow disease, bird flu, foot and mouth, tb etc......

[kzb]

22 minutes ago, winkie said:

No amount of checks will stop disease spreading from country.......birds bring in disease, comes on the wind, on shoes, tyers, suitcases.......COVID 19 got everywhere really quickly, mad cow disease, bird flu, foot and mouth, tb etc......

It depends what they are.  We don't have rabies, for one.  Colorado beetle has been kept at bay.

You needed a Plant Health Licence to bring in soil, or anything potentially contaminated with soil, from outside the EU, as if there was something magic about the EU border in preventing spread of pests.  There is a long list of produce that you either are or not allowed from outside the EU without a licence.

It's not so much the spread of human diseases that these rules are aimed at, which as you say are a different area.  The primary purpose is agricultural pests and diseases.

There is a long list of pests which needed to be guarded against.  For example:

https://planthealthportal.defra.gov.uk/pests-and-diseases/pest-and-disease-factsheets/notifiable-pests/

https://planthealthportal.defra.gov.uk/assets/factsheets/epitrix-potato-flea-beetle-factsheet.pdf

Epitrix potato flea beetles pose a serious threat to potato production in the UK. Potato tubers, or soil attached to the tubers, could carry the pest (as pupae, adults or possibly larvae) over long distances. The import of potatoes from infested areas in Portugal and Spain provides a potential pathway of introduction to the UK. The following measures have been introduced to prevent the introduction of this pest into England and similar measures are planned for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales:  All potatoes imported from non-demarcated areas of mainland Spain must be washed before export, in order to kill or remove any Epitrix which might be present.  All potatoes imported from demarcated areas of Spain or Portugal must be washed or brushed before export and accompanied by a plant passport.  There is a requirement to notify APHA at least 2 days in advance of the introduction into England of potatoes from Portugal and Spai

[Dweller]

All good

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/30/eu-food-importers-say-post-brexit-checks-could-increase-their-costs-by-60

Food importers in UK say new Brexit checks could add 60% to costs Businesses say fees for Dover inspections are much higher than first thought and will push up shop prices

[Dyson Fury]

EU Single Market border-free trade GOOD.

Brexit food border checks BAD.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/tonnes-of-illegal-meat-and-54-sheep-carcasses-seized-at-port-305999/

Quote

Repulsive images show rotten-looking illegally imported meat including pork and 54 sheep carcasses which were seized at a port.

The items were found at Dover in two vehicles travelling from Romania and also included cheese items dripping with blood, authorities say.

The cargo had been transported for several days in unhygienic conditions and unsuitable packaging such as incomplete domestic clingfilm, black sacks and duct tape.

The meat had also been carried without temperature controls and was cross-contaminating other food including pig parts, chicken and beef and cheese.

 

Edited April 30 by Dyson Fury

[kzb]

14 hours ago, Dweller said:

All good

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/30/eu-food-importers-say-post-brexit-checks-could-increase-their-costs-by-60

Food importers in UK say new Brexit checks could add 60% to costs Businesses say fees for Dover inspections are much higher than first thought and will push up shop prices

But no-one considers that perhaps we could grow our own flowers ?

Why aren't we already growing our own flowers ?  We would have been, back in the day.

These people have tunnel vision.  They can't appreciate that once upon a time we would've grown our own, and then the Single Market came along and we didn't anymore.  That is the picture you need to see, think long-term.

 

[kzb]

16 hours ago, winkie said:

No amount of checks will stop disease spreading from country.......birds bring in disease, comes on the wind, on shoes, tyers, suitcases.......COVID 19 got everywhere really quickly, mad cow disease, bird flu, foot and mouth, tb etc......

To add to what I said before, we are at far more risk from them as they are from us.

We are a small cold little island.  Europe is part of the largest contiguous land mass on the planet, covering a huge range of climates and therefore pest species.

Insects don't respect the EU land border with the rest of Eurasia.  The UK has the channel which affords us some protection.

Yet we are in the ludicrous position where the EU is neurotically checking everything coming from the UK, but we aren't checking stuff from Europe.  Logically that is the wrong way round, at least if pests and diseases are your real concerns (which of course they are not).

 

[Dweller]

24 minutes ago, kzb said:

But no-one considers that perhaps we could grow our own flowers ?

Why aren't we already growing our own flowers ?  We would have been, back in the day.

These people have tunnel vision.  They can't appreciate that once upon a time we would've grown our own, and then the Single Market came along and we didn't anymore.  That is the picture you need to see, think long-term.

 

From my limited understanding  we are not growing our own flowers/fruit/veg because of the huge costs of heating glasshouses and because we can't get pickers, there may well be other reasons. Maybe like so many other things, other people are just so much better at this then the UK even though the UK is world beating at everything including borders!

[kzb]

8 minutes ago, Dweller said:

From my limited understanding  we are not growing our own flowers/fruit/veg because of the huge costs of heating glasshouses and because we can't get pickers, there may well be other reasons. Maybe like so many other things, other people are just so much better at this then the UK even though the UK is world beating at everything including borders!

There's not much difference in climate between UK and NL.

I've questioned this "we can't get pickers" idea elsewhere.  As I said, there are very few vacancies advertised.  Last year there were about 14 in the whole country.

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, kzb said:

But no-one considers that perhaps we could grow our own flowers ?

Why aren't we already growing our own flowers ?  We would have been, back in the day.

These people have tunnel vision.  They can't appreciate that once upon a time we would've grown our own, and then the Single Market came along and we didn't anymore.  That is the picture you need to see, think long-term.

 

Presumably it is because it is not cost effective either because it would displace something else that is more profitable or we don't have the capital/skills to rival what is by far the world's most developed/automated flower industry 

The big picture is that trade barriers make us poorer. 

The affected trade groups say the government figures for the cost of this nonsense is deliberately understated, which is why they refuse to publish their cost model (hard to believe that a goverment can do this in a democracy). The real cost is thought to be between  £2-3bn p.a.

All this for a system that achieves absolutely nothing

- checks will be random on between 1-30% of goods, so the bugs will get through

- checks will be suspended at busy times to avoid disrupting flows, so the smugglers will get through

ITV is reporting that even on day 1 the checks are not actually taking place with the lorries being waved through.

 

[Dweller]

24 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Presumably it is because it is not cost effective either because it would displace something else that is more profitable or we don't have the capital/skills to rival what is by far the world's most developed/automated flower industry 

The big picture is that trade barriers make us poorer. 

The affected trade groups say the government figures for the cost of this nonsense is deliberately understated, which is why they refuse to publish their cost model (hard to believe that a goverment can do this in a democracy). The real cost is thought to be between  £2-3bn p.a.

All this for a system that achieves absolutely nothing

- checks will be random on between 1-30% of goods, so the bugs will get through

- checks will be suspended at busy times to avoid disrupting flows, so the smugglers will get through

ITV is reporting that even on day 1 the checks are not actually taking place with the lorries being waved through.

 

And the costs don't even seem to take into account that currently nobody will be at the ports between 7 p.m  and 7 a.m when the majority of trucks  are entering the country. I assume they don't want to employ staff when they know the border is  NEVER going to work. 

[winkie]

Why do we forever keep shooting ourselves in the foot?

[kzb]

1 hour ago, Dweller said:

And the costs don't even seem to take into account that currently nobody will be at the ports between 7 p.m  and 7 a.m when the majority of trucks  are entering the country. I assume they don't want to employ staff when they know the border is  NEVER going to work. 

We're playing the EU at their own game.

If the costs are at all significant (and I have my doubts TBH) there will be an economic realignment between EU imports, RoW imports and home-grown produce.

Our own farmers welcome these checks, ostensibly for biosecurity reasons, but really it is because it gives them a slight economic advantage over EU producers.

Perhaps it will be advantageous not to carpet our prime agricultural land with solar panels now.

[Dweller]

An interesting article with plenty of further links re the still not implemented UK border.

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2024/05/brexit-border-bewilderment.html

Brexit border bewilderment

[Dweller]

All good according to DEFRA 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/04/uk-flower-industry-thrown-into-chaos-by-new-brexit-border-checks

UK flower industry thrown into chaos by new Brexit border checks Firms said food and plant checks and Latin names causing costly delays with lorries waiting hours in first week of post-EU regime