Orb Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 21 minutes ago, nightowl said: suggesting the idea would cause a media storm if Tice and co tried it so might raise their profile enough.😏 Precisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 minutes ago, Insane said: How do you know that? Where I live on the East London Essex Borders there are now so many people living in this small area that it is now effecting daily life. Recent polling shows 52% of respondents approve of skilled migration, but also 52% think migration is too high. Thats the percentage i described as 'brexit like", the brexit vote being split 52/48. its not a thumping majority to base your hopes on in a referendum I would say the features of immigration people dont like are populations of young men of working age seeking asylum when in reality they are economic migrants. you have to weigh up the fact that while the south of england attracts and retains large amounts of immigrants, a referendum gives an equal vote to the whole nation. Some parts, in fact entire countries like Scotland and Wales have seen negligible immigration and have shortages of things like doctors, dentists and so on that politicians promise would be solved if more people would immigrate to Scotland.... 47 minutes ago, Insane said: The two default sound bites are :- 1. We need immigrants to do the jobs the Brits won't do. 2. We need immigrants to pick the crops as they are rotting in the fields. Well we have had over 10 million extra people arrive and these jobs are still empty As above, plus Soft fruit picking jobs weren't empty until brexit and they were done by immigrants until that point. I've no idea what the 10mn people coming to do actually did, most came in through freedom of movement ended and therefore didn't need to possess any particular "skill". The argument today is that, from now on, we promise we will only let in people for whom there are jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 7 minutes ago, regprentice said: Recent polling shows 52% of respondents approve of skilled migration, but also 52% think migration is too high. Thats the percentage i described as 'brexit like", the brexit vote being split 52/48. its not a thumping majority to base your hopes on in a referendum I would say the features of immigration people dont like are populations of young men of working age seeking asylum when in reality they are economic migrants. you have to weigh up the fact that while the south of england attracts and retains large amounts of immigrants, a referendum gives an equal vote to the whole nation. Some parts, in fact entire countries like Scotland and Wales have seen negligible immigration and have shortages of things like doctors, dentists and so on that politicians promise would be solved if more people would immigrate to Scotland.... Well we have polls and opinions ect but from what I am hearing now (just my antidotes) where I live more and more people who would not normally notice or care are now starting to ask where does it all end? How many more people do we allow in skilled or unskilled? Everyone who comes here needs, wants and demands services so it is a never ending increasing circle. I can only go on what I am seeing and hearing. From reading posts on various websites the places you state like Scotland and Wales there are people in those places stating that they feel they are having quite a high amount of immigration they have not been left unaffected. It is not just the major English Towns and City's that have seen a steep rise. 16 minutes ago, regprentice said: As above, plus Soft fruit picking jobs weren't empty until brexit and they were done by immigrants until that point. Have you proof of that? 17 minutes ago, regprentice said: The argument today is that, from now on, we promise we will only let in people for whom there are jobs If we stopped paying people a full time wage via tax credits to work part time, many empty jobs would be filled without the need to bring in more and more people. I wonder how many recent settled immigrants are now only working part time? No one gives figures or information on this. Those people being let in now will also need housing and other services. As I have already said it is a never ending ever increasing circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Money Frugality Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I know people across the typical left (police officers, teachers, nhs staff) and typical right (solicitors, directors, business owners, farmers) who are all voting reform… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero120 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/01/14/richard-tice-reform-uk-leader-nigel-farage-brexit-politics/ Read any Telegraph article related to reform or the Tories and you'll see thousands of comments saying that the Tories are lefties and that reform is the only way, even if it means labour getting a term in power. Thousands. And these are property-rich boomers. Reform is indeed the dark horse, the country is sick of the two party system. I bet Farage smells this and has a plan to rejoin with Rice in some public capacity to help do as much damage to the Tories and labour as possible, come the next election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyson Fury Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/01/14/reform-uk-richard-tice-rishi-sunak-tories-general-election/ Quote How Reform UK will shatter the Tories – without winning a seat Insurgent party set up by Nigel Farage and led by Richard Tice will cost the Conservatives 96 seats, YouGov poll predicts Quote Reform UK, the Right-wing party set up by Nigel Farage, will hand Labour a huge majority by drawing millions of voters away from the Conservatives, polling suggests. The former Brexit Party, now led by the businessman Richard Tice, will cost the Conservatives 96 seats, a YouGov poll predicts.... In several recent opinion polls, around 10 per cent of voters have said they would back Reform, a similar percentage to the Lib Dems.... Reform is on course to take more than 10 per cent of the vote in 73 constituencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 19 minutes ago, Dyson Fury said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/01/14/reform-uk-richard-tice-rishi-sunak-tories-general-election/ The current right wing are an ideologically random organisationally inept shower. And they don't see it. That would be fine under normal circumstances, you just wouldn't let them babysit your children. Give them a polite nod in the supermarket and shuffle swiftly past. But these clowns are somehow in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancTom Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 13/01/2024 at 08:31, Tony_Teacake said: Do you actually know anyone who as lived on the streets? This is not a lifestyle choice. You say there is help. I haven't witnessed the RNLI going around the streets picking up the homeless and transferring them to hotels. do the homeless live in the sea then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancTom Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 19 hours ago, regprentice said: Recent polling shows 52% of respondents approve of skilled migration, but also 52% think migration is too high. Thats the percentage i described as 'brexit like", the brexit vote being split 52/48. its not a thumping majority to base your hopes on in a referendum I would say the features of immigration people dont like are populations of young men of working age seeking asylum when in reality they are economic migrants. you have to weigh up the fact that while the south of england attracts and retains large amounts of immigrants, a referendum gives an equal vote to the whole nation. Some parts, in fact entire countries like Scotland and Wales have seen negligible immigration and have shortages of things like doctors, dentists and so on that politicians promise would be solved if more people would immigrate to Scotland.... As above, plus Soft fruit picking jobs weren't empty until brexit and they were done by immigrants until that point. I've no idea what the 10mn people coming to do actually did, most came in through freedom of movement ended and therefore didn't need to possess any particular "skill". The argument today is that, from now on, we promise we will only let in people for whom there are jobs the government limits visas for soft fruit picking. Those industries have been lobbying to expand the cap given Brits won't do the jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero120 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 1 hour ago, Dyson Fury said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/01/14/reform-uk-richard-tice-rishi-sunak-tories-general-election/ Ah yes the old "A VOTE FOR REFORM IS A VOTE FOR LABOUR!!!" scare tactics. Well judging from the top comments (where telegraph readers are heavily commenting on this and related articles) it's not working: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Far Canal Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 22 hours ago, andrewwk said: wow, that's even dumber than I thought it might be I guess your solution to unaffordable housing is to "build more houses". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Necessities Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) Prediction: Reform will get zero seats But, if they do end up standing, they will lose the Tories a load more votes (and thus lose even more seats than they would lose without Reform taking their votes) [Insert Simpsons "Stop, Stop! He's already dead! meme here] Edited January 15 by Bear Necessities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewwk Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 1 hour ago, Far Canal said: I guess your solution to unaffordable housing is to "build more houses". no, it's 1. move to a points-based immigration system like Aus that takes into account skills shortages 2. set interest rates at a level such that the real rate is positive. but I also can't see what is wrong with trying to increasing house building as well.. Indeed, in a properly functioning market, high prices would stimulate such supply increases, but the housing market is subject to artificial restriction (planning, green belt, nimbies etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burk Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 14/01/2024 at 04:03, Orb said: I wouldn't know. I listened to a spokesman for End Mass Migration (EMM) and even he couldn't say. I imagine it would be something along the lines of "should the UK introduce a strict points based immigration system?" yes/no, or something like that. We're way beyond that, it's how many million, benefits-claiming, unskilled, 6th century-believing, knife-wielding, sex-assaulting, perma-protesting 3rd worlders should we return annually. I want a department of deportations set up within the first month of the next govt forming. The SDP are the only party talking sense on immigration although don't agree with 50k a year coming in. And Given how disillusioned everyone is with the uni party, reform might well be an upset to many of the bubble dwellers in Westminster. #kinnock1992? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orb Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 7 minutes ago, burk said: We're way beyond that, it's how many million, benefits-claiming, unskilled, 6th century-believing, knife-wielding, sex-assaulting, perma-protesting 3rd worlders should we return annually. I want a department of deportations set up within the first month of the next govt forming. The SDP are the only party talking sense on immigration although don't agree with 50k a year coming in. And Given how disillusioned everyone is with the uni party, reform might well be an upset to many of the bubble dwellers in Westminster. #kinnock1992? In an ideal world I'd like to see a total stop to immigration and mass deportations too, for a variety of cultural and social reasons. However, any party offering a referendum couldn't really compose the referendum question so extreme. Claims of "far right" could then be more justified, whether mass deportations are actually far right or not. A politically more palatable question would offer a strict points based system. I know that's not to a lot of people's tastes, but it would stop the insane levels of mass immigration we're experiencing now. Anyway, it was an example of how the question could be phrased. Another way it could be phrased is "should there be a generational pause on all immigration?" Y/N. This option would allow us at least to deal with the huge current problem and catch up regarding infrastructure, housing, and services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 5 minutes ago, Orb said: Another way it could be phrased is "should there be a generational pause on all immigration?" Y/N. This option would allow us at least to deal with the huge current problem and catch up regarding infrastructure, housing, and services. This is the scary part. We do need a pause on immigration in order to catch up regarding infrastructure, housing and services. However I don't see it happening. I see more of the same carrying on , where will it all end up? How many more people are going to come in? Will we see tent city's on our streets like the USA? The current rate of immigration is unsustainable yet there are many people quite happy for it to carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumble bee Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 'It's an honour to have you here': Donald Trump lavishes praise on 'handsome guy' Nigel Farage 'I'm just looking at this handsome guy. He's been a backer of mine from day one,' Mr Trump said. Mr Farage's trip to the US came as he confirmed he is mulling a return to Britain's political frontline ahead of the general election. The 59-year-old, now the honorary president of Reform UK, said he was considering 'getting back on the pitch' after a poll suggested - should he make an eighth bid to become an MP - he would comfortably win a seat in the House of Commons. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12965029/Its-honour-Donald-Trump-lavishes-praise-handsome-guy-Nigel-Farage-ex-UKIP-leader-attends-ex-presidents-campaign-speech-Iowa-mulls-return-Britains-political-frontline-eighth-bid-MP.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orb Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 11 minutes ago, Insane said: This is the scary part. We do need a pause on immigration in order to catch up regarding infrastructure, housing and services. However I don't see it happening. I see more of the same carrying on , where will it all end up? How many more people are going to come in? Will we see tent city's on our streets like the USA? The current rate of immigration is unsustainable yet there are many people quite happy for it to carry on. There would have to be a flash point. I'm noticing some of my friends (I do have friends!) who I've known for 25 years, and who have never spoken about social or political issues, are suddenly expressing disdain and anger at the immigration situation. Anti-immigration sentiment is spreading amongst people. Sadly though, as it does spread, the pro-immigration cohort seem to dig in and reinforce their position more, causing a deeply divided polarisation. It's as if pro-immigration people are less concerned about the argument and the issue, and more concerned about winning the argument, no matter how absurd their position seems. An example of such is a bill-board by the side of the M25 which simply states "More immigration please". How on earth can that be rational given the seriousness of the situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 4 minutes ago, Orb said: I'm noticing some of my friends (I do have friends!) who I've known for 25 years, and who have never spoken about social or political issues, are suddenly expressing disdain and anger at the immigration situation. Ditto. I am hearing many say what is it going to be like for my Grandchildren? 5 minutes ago, Orb said: It's as if pro-immigration people are less concerned about the argument and the issue, and more concerned about winning the argument, no matter how absurd their position seems. An example of such is a bill-board by the side of the M25 which simply states "More immigration please". How on earth can that be rational given the seriousness of the situation? It is not rational but people are still calling for more there are people on this Forum who don't see a problem or even a connection with lack of housing and services are made worse with more and more people. They will tell us the crops are rotting in the fields and we need more immigrants to work in the NHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 4 hours ago, MancTom said: the government limits visas for soft fruit picking. Those industries have been lobbying to expand the cap given Brits won't do the jobs. Wont do the jobs at the wages on offer. Instead of lobying for migrants to undercut british wages they should simply pay the going rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancTom Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 5 minutes ago, Pebbles said: Wont do the jobs at the wages on offer. Instead of lobying for migrants to undercut british wages they should simply pay the going rate. who are they then going to sell these expensive fruits too? Clients will just import it for a cheaper price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 2 minutes ago, MancTom said: who are they then going to sell these expensive fruits too? Clients will just import it for a cheaper price. The old " the crops are rotting in the fields " Soundbite followed by the Brits won't pick the crops. There have been various instances where people have applied to farms to get jobs and the farmers won't employ them they want overseas workers who often work below the minimum wage. I am not interested in underpinning an industry that relies on illegal wages to function. Would you be happy to work for below the legal minimum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 3 minutes ago, MancTom said: who are they then going to sell these expensive fruits too? Clients will just import it for a cheaper price. Food is historically very cheap people will just have to make do with less Chinese crap and pay more for wholesome food. What we dont need is people and their dependents undercutting local wages who are not net contributors to the country (I believe the cutoff figure for that is approx 45k). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 5 minutes ago, Pebbles said: What we dont need is people and their dependents undercutting local wages who are not net contributors to the country (I believe the cutoff figure for that is approx 45k). Correct. There is no such thing as cheap labour. It is only cheap at the point of use , the costs are made up by others elsewhere when those earning little paying little in tax use services such as the NHS and apply for in work benefits like Tax Credits and housing benefit. The pro immigration pro low wage people tend to ignore these points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewwk Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 27 minutes ago, Insane said: Ditto. I am hearing many say what is it going to be like for my Grandchildren? It is not rational but people are still calling for more there are people on this Forum who don't see a problem or even a connection with lack of housing and services are made worse with more and more people. They will tell us the crops are rotting in the fields and we need more immigrants to work in the NHS. if there is a shortage of staff in the NHS (there is) we do need people from overseas with those skills to fill the gap. We don't need loads of low skilled workers / illegal migration and I am sure we will agree on that. But the rocket surgeon "one in one out" idea would literally see people dying because there are not doctors / nurses to care for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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