Electric car boom will fuel demand for power, says National Grid

[Riedquat]

1 minute ago, Habeas Domus said:

Given how completely connected these new electric cars are perhaps a better option would be to have them all automatically dial home with a report of how many miles are being driven, you then get a fuel bill from the car company. You can charge the car for free anywhere in the country and the car companies re-imburse the energy companies.

That sounds like a method the government will love to push, seeing as it would be nice and easy to tax that and thus recoup the losses from fuel tax (and be certain that they will).

[Confusion of VIs]

9 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

The chances are that I'd have something that feels a lot quicker if I'd paid that much for an ICE car. The thing about rapid acceleration is that although people like it it's something they're quite happy to do without - it's in the luxury category. The other oft-quoted advantage of electrics, noise, only really applies at very low speeds too, once up to normal running speed it's not much different from any other car, seeing as it's dominated by tyre and aerodynamic noise at that point. Electric cars will take over, I'm fairly sure on that, but it'll be because they end up overall more economical. They offer little in the way of meaningful practical advantage because the ordinary car does everything that's needed on that front anyway.

I was given one while my M5 was in for servicing and in normal driving it felt quick enough, usually I am given a 320d xdrive  which costs about the same as an i3 and feels slow in comparison.  Of course its more about the instant power delivery rather than outright pace, but in the real world this is all you need. There will be meaningful advantages even for people who don't care about performance more interior space, almost zero maintenance and hugely extended warranties.  

Given the rate of battery development I think the switchover is going to happen much faster than anticipated.       

[Confusion of VIs]

46 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

That sounds like a method the government will love to push, seeing as it would be nice and easy to tax that and thus recoup the losses from fuel tax (and be certain that they will).

They will certainly have to find a way of taxing electric cars once they become mainstream, road/congestion pricing would be my bet.

[kzb]

I'm not that worried about the driver experience at the moment, what I am bothered about is how I am going to charge the thing up.

Lamposts are not enough.  There needs to be about one charging point per household on average.  Every residential street needs a row of charging points, one every few metres.

It's going to be a massive financial investment to provide this.  How is funded?

[TrevorJL]

On 7/31/2017 at 1:05 PM, Habeas Domus said:

Alternatively given how everyone like to rent everything these days, you'd pay a fixed monthly fee which will cover driving up to X number of miles, just like a mobile phone contract.

That is the model we use - we currently provide 10000 miles of free home charging with each car, but once we can sort the finance we will provide all home charging included. Longer term we will also provide national network charging too. As you say, the mobile phone approach is what people seem to want.

[TrevorJL]

On 7/31/2017 at 2:11 PM, kzb said:

I'm not that worried about the driver experience at the moment, what I am bothered about is how I am going to charge the thing up.

Lamposts are not enough.  There needs to be about one charging point per household on average.  Every residential street needs a row of charging points, one every few metres.

It's going to be a massive financial investment to provide this.  How is funded?

I don't think that's going to happen myself. Some houses without off road parking may get nearby charge points installed. The majority I suspect will have to go to rapid chargers to fill up (which would take about half an hour) or to a local supermarket or shopping centre to use a quick charger (which would take about 4 hours). The general approach will be to get a charge where you are for how long you are there, there's no benefit in filling up all at once as people do at a petrol station.

[kzb]

21 minutes ago, TrevorJL said:

I don't think that's going to happen myself. Some houses without off road parking may get nearby charge points installed. The majority I suspect will have to go to rapid chargers to fill up (which would take about half an hour) or to a local supermarket or shopping centre to use a quick charger (which would take about 4 hours). The general approach will be to get a charge where you are for how long you are there, there's no benefit in filling up all at once as people do at a petrol station.

That's my point, I can't see it actually happen either.

A bit like the channel tunnel freight.  There were going to be loading points for channel tunnel trains at Crewe and other points around the country.  Never happened.

There certainly is a benefit in filling up to the max if you are about to go on a long journey.  I don't want to spend hours at motorway services waiting for the overpriced charge points.

It sounds like hell.  I already do not have enough time, and now I need to drive round trying to find a rapid charge point without a queue.  Thank god I'll be past it by 2040 anyhow.

[Calcutta]

For what my uninformed 2p is worth, I don't think anyone other than the incredibly dedicated will have the own vehicle by 2040. Little electric Noddy cars, self driven, ordered as and when needed from Uber etc are the future.

The main costs for a taxi are fuel, wages, insurance, licenses. All of that will be irrelevant as soon as the tech is in place.

[Old Guy]

In a similar vein to this thread, I went on a cruise last year which included a 'behind the scenes ' tour. Apparently the engines were no more than generators to produce electricity for the 6 or so motors which actually propelled the ship.

Apparently this is being taken up by the military in a big way, so why can't it work on a small scale for cars using a battery to provide the flexible power delivery? Surely an engine tuned to run at more or less constant revs as a power generator would be far more efficient than the present arrangement, and as a hybrid it could still be charged up from the grid when possible .

I am totally non technical so feel free to destroy my rationale.

[Confusion of VIs]

3 minutes ago, Calcutta said:

For what my uninformed 2p is worth, I don't think anyone other than the incredibly dedicated will have the own vehicle by 2040. Little electric Noddy cars, self driven, ordered as and when needed from Uber etc are the future.

The main costs for a taxi are fuel, wages, insurance, licenses. All of that will be irrelevant as soon as the tech is in place.

Well I will have one by next year as a 2nd car, so long motorway journeys won't feature much. No road tax or congestion charge means it's more than cost effective compared with a similar ICE car over 5 years.

 

[Confusion of VIs]

3 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

In a similar vein to this thread, I went on a cruise last year which included a 'behind the scenes ' tour. Apparently the engines were no more than generators to produce electricity for the 6 or so motors which actually propelled the ship.

Apparently this is being taken up by the military in a big way, so why can't it work on a small scale for cars using a battery to provide the flexible power delivery? Surely an engine tuned to run at more or less constant revs as a power generator would be far more efficient than the present arrangement, and as a hybrid it could still be charged up from the grid when possible .

I am totally non technical so feel free to destroy my rationale.

You can already buy one the Nissan Note E-Power:   https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/02/nissan-note-e-power-ev-series-hybrid/

As you say much more efficient, especially in urban conditions.

[Riedquat]

11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Well I will have one by next year as a 2nd car, so long motorway journeys won't feature much. No road tax or congestion charge means it's more than cost effective compared with a similar ICE car over 5 years.

At present. There's no way that the differences in costs that are ultimately tax-based won't get passed on to electrics. Now the overall running cost will still probably be lower on electrics anyway, but not by a great margin. For your five years, yes, but not long term.

[winkie]

I do not want an electric car and will not be buying one unless forced on me, quite happy with the status quo......more choice is good but reducing choice or pricing people out is not good.....not interested in self drive, keep changing the battery or renting either.

[Old Guy]

22 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You can already buy one the Nissan Note E-Power:   https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/02/nissan-note-e-power-ev-series-hybrid/

As you say much more efficient, especially in urban conditions.

Interesting and thanks.

[TrevorJL]

26 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You can already buy one the Nissan Note E-Power:   https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/02/nissan-note-e-power-ev-series-hybrid/

As you say much more efficient, especially in urban conditions.

The Note is just a hybrid, albeit the engine isn't connected to the wheels. In terms of plugins, examples would be the BMW i3 REx (range extender - uses a BMW motorbike engine) or the Chevrolet Volt/Vauxhall Ampera which can be a series hybrid, parallel hybrid (engine and motor together) or conventional petrol car.

[Riedquat]

26 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You can already buy one the Nissan Note E-Power:   https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/02/nissan-note-e-power-ev-series-hybrid/

As you say much more efficient, especially in urban conditions.

Urban driving is far and away the obvious place to really make a difference, and I think talk about "let's get rid of all petrol and diesel" is an unhelpful distraction, too big and unnecessary a goal, when a great deal could be achieved by concentrating on the urban (and suburban) aspect. Electric cars don't need to be made to work for everyone (although that may happen in time anyway).

[TrevorJL]

19 minutes ago, winkie said:

I do not want an electric car and will not be buying one unless forced on me, quite happy with the status quo......more choice is good but reducing choice or pricing people out is not good.....not interested in self drive, keep changing the battery or renting either.

That's an interesting view. I'm guessing you've not driven a quality EV like a Tesla or a BMW i3? I've got an i3 and could never go back to a piston car, any more than I'd give up my smartphone for a landline.

[Riedquat]

41 minutes ago, TrevorJL said:

That's an interesting view. I'm guessing you've not driven a quality EV like a Tesla or a BMW i3? I've got an i3 and could never go back to a piston car, any more than I'd give up my smartphone for a landline.

I'm abivalent about electric cars - comparing with luxury models is pretty meaningless since I'm no more likely to have a luxury electric car than I am a luxury ICE car. Next time I need a new car an electric may well be amongst the options I'll consider but it's most likely I'll decide on other things than whether the power is stored in a battery or fuel tank. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to bother getting a smartphone though, a landline serves all my telephone needs and desires (considering I have neither need nor desire to be able to phone people or use the internet wherever I am).

[Lurkst]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Option5 said:

What electronics? My car pre-dates them (1956 Ford Escort)

[Peter Hun]

On 01/08/2017 at 3:57 PM, Calcutta said:

For what my uninformed 2p is worth, I don't think anyone other than the incredibly dedicated will have the own vehicle by 2040. Little electric Noddy cars, self driven, ordered as and when needed from Uber etc are the future.

The main costs for a taxi are fuel, wages, insurance, licenses. All of that will be irrelevant as soon as the tech is in place.

Far from uninformed, many companies such as Google are betting that self driving cars hired on demand will dominate transport in the near future.

Of course ICE manuals will exist for entertainment that costs 5 times as much per mile.

[markyh]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 3:22 PM, winkie said:

I do not want an electric car and will not be buying one unless forced on me, quite happy with the status quo......more choice is good but reducing choice or pricing people out is not good.....not interested in self drive, keep changing the battery or renting either.

 

You will most likely never need to change an EV battery any more than you would change a ICE engine. We are a full EV family BMW and Chevrolet and have had the Chevy Volt 2nd hand since 2014. It now has 61k miles and my wife has done 46k of those miles and the battery is full charged, driven 35 miles, empty/almost empty, fully charged again and driven 35 miles home, every weekday. The car has the same EV range and same battery capacity as the day it was new in 2012. There are 2012 Volts in the USA that have done 300k+ miles and still have the same battery capacity as new. Also most new designs like my BMW i3 have a removable battery tray where individual cells can be swapped out it the lose charge ability, and a lot easier than removing the engine from a car and replacing something inside it!!

Hardly any EV's are forcefully sold with battery rental these days, you nearly always have the choice to buy the battery with the car. 

As a family we do about 43k miles p/a in 2016/17 with our two EV's and have reduced our liquid hydrocarbon fuel use (and tax paid) by 90% since 2014.

ICE will be taxed off the road and non self drive cars will be insured off the road unless you are rich. Want to play with your manual car on the automated highway, fine, you are a dangerous human pay £5k insurance p/a for the privelage.

You are than man 100+ years ago that didn't want to give up his horse as daily transport my friend.

 

[Option5]

12 hours ago, Lurkst said:

That's the one (except mine's grey) Oh and it's not my only car, that would be silly

[winkie]

8 hours ago, markyh said:

 

You will most likely never need to change an EV battery any more than you would change a ICE engine. We are a full EV family BMW and Chevrolet and have had the Chevy Volt 2nd hand since 2014. It now has 61k miles and my wife has done 46k of those miles and the battery is full charged, driven 35 miles, empty/almost empty, fully charged again and driven 35 miles home, every weekday. The car has the same EV range and same battery capacity as the day it was new in 2012. There are 2012 Volts in the USA that have done 300k+ miles and still have the same battery capacity as new. Also most new designs like my BMW i3 have a removable battery tray where individual cells can be swapped out it the lose charge ability, and a lot easier than removing the engine from a car and replacing something inside it!!

Hardly any EV's are forcefully sold with battery rental these days, you nearly always have the choice to buy the battery with the car. 

As a family we do about 43k miles p/a in 2016/17 with our two EV's and have reduced our liquid hydrocarbon fuel use (and tax paid) by 90% since 2014.

ICE will be taxed off the road and non self drive cars will be insured off the road unless you are rich. Want to play with your manual car on the automated highway, fine, you are a dangerous human pay £5k insurance p/a for the privelage.

You are than man 100+ years ago that didn't want to give up his horse as daily transport my friend.

 

I would prefer the choice, people want electric fair enough go for it...can and do still drive cars round and about legally, built over 60 years ago....petrol pistons....not everyone has a smart phone, they have a phone, not everyone has gas they have oil, not everyone has drains they have a cess pit, not everyone has mains they have a generator and solar panels.....some still have boreholes......choices......do they feel hard done by?

[Snafu]

My next car will likely be a used Tesla model 3 in a couple of years time or Volvo XC90 t8 PHEV (but mpg is rubbish) BUT I might be using my electric bike as main transport 20 miles per day to care not so much about the poor mpg, just see it as weekend family transport. We had an electric Zoe as a second car which works really well. It went back as lease ended after two years (125 a month ). You can't find such cheap deals now. Wife cares what the cars look like which is an issue so unfortunately back to an ICE car.

Net: Tesla long term or PHEV and use bike as main commuter and drop off at school. Target bike..Big fat dummy surly cargo bike with 500w motor on it.

https://goo.gl/images/hDDZsS

 

[Take Me Back To London!]

On 2017-8-1 at 2:49 PM, kzb said:

That's my point, I can't see it actually happen either.

A bit like the channel tunnel freight.  There were going to be loading points for channel tunnel trains at Crewe and other points around the country.  Never happened.

That's interesting. I know there was going to be a night sleeper train service again from different parts of UK, through the channel tunnel to destinations in Europe. They even started to build the trains.