Electric car boom will fuel demand for power, says National Grid

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, cashinmattress said:

Electric cars for the masses as a thing is a long way off. So are the systems to support, manage, and control it. I say this as a very experienced Electro-Mechanical Engineer.

Nice to see the debate ongoing though...albeit much of it flawed or ignorant of the economics and supply side logistical issues.

 

I guess you know more that the car manufacturers and oil industry.

 

[cashinmattress]

1 hour ago, Peter Hun said:

I guess you know more that the car manufacturers and oil industry.

How about not being a smarmy git?

No I don't. But I know the state of our indigenous energy security and our indignous capacity to create energy infrastructure. It's not great and has been getting progressively worse.

Further....having governments plus industry talking about wholesale conversion projects a lifetime away is pointless. Full of red herrings, uncosted, and will require a generation of engineering that the UK is not currently supportive of. On paper...sure...but show me the money.

You keep on pretending your Prius is saving the world. Dream on that every neighborhood will be flush with high current DC power points, electricity tariffs are low, cheap electric vehicles zip around en masse, and more importantly that the UK's net contribution to global emissions from civilian transport really matters a jot.

Reality is that petrol energy is here to stay. Theres plenty enough for 100's of years.

Go to a peer reviewed research site and read for your feckin self.

[kzb]

4 hours ago, cashinmattress said:

I don't believe anybody has committed to anything other than a paper exercise at the moment. Grid development in DC is more important than the end use it IMO.

I was wondering about the AC-DC conversion efficiency.  We know the Li-ion batteries themselves are highly efficient (98-99% according to Wikipedia), but what about the chargers? 

They have to convert mains electricity (AC) to the correct voltage (DC) for charging.  How efficient is this?

[Peter Hun]

3 hours ago, cashinmattress said:

You keep on pretending your Prius is saving the world. Dream on that every neighborhood will be flush with high current DC power points, electricity tariffs are low, cheap electric vehicles zip around en masse, and more importantly that the UK's net contribution to global emissions from civilian transport really matters a jot.

Reality is that petrol energy is here to stay. Theres plenty enough for 100's of years.

In 5 years we will have a problem, because the cars will be there demanding the electricity and we will have to supply them.

Nobody will want petrol - its as simple as that.

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, kzb said:

I was wondering about the AC-DC conversion efficiency.  We know the Li-ion batteries themselves are highly efficient (98-99% according to Wikipedia), but what about the chargers? 

They have to convert mains electricity (AC) to the correct voltage (DC) for charging.  How efficient is this?

Tesla is claiming 98% http://www.power-mag.com/pdf/feature_pdf/1310569074_Teslaco_Feature_Layout_1.pdf

 

[Confusion of VIs]

4 hours ago, cashinmattress said:

How about not being a smarmy git?

No I don't. But I know the state of our indigenous energy security and our indignous capacity to create energy infrastructure. It's not great and has been getting progressively worse.

Further....having governments plus industry talking about wholesale conversion projects a lifetime away is pointless. Full of red herrings, uncosted, and will require a generation of engineering that the UK is not currently supportive of. On paper...sure...but show me the money.

You keep on pretending your Prius is saving the world. Dream on that every neighborhood will be flush with high current DC power points, electricity tariffs are low, cheap electric vehicles zip around en masse, and more importantly that the UK's net contribution to global emissions from civilian transport really matters a jot.

Reality is that petrol energy is here to stay. Theres plenty enough for 100's of years.

Go to a peer reviewed research site and read for your feckin self.

 

I have no great knowledge, beyond a bit of reading up (as we are going to buy a used BMW i3 to replace our second car, which is used to go into London a couple of times a week and general evening weekend running around) and a Physics degree so can understand the debate about the power requirements (apparently rather better than most journalists).

At the moment the papers seem to be attempting to fill space by concentrating on raising potential problems without giving any thought to how these could be overcome. 

Just looking at the last few days stories.

Guardian claims electric cars will not reduce particulate polution because much of this comes from vehicle brakes. It ignores both that it will eliminate the half that comes from the engine and that you almost never have to use the brakes on an electric car vas the regenetive braking is strong enough for normal driving.

Massive power grid upgrade will be required to meet the load imposed by everyone getting home from work at 6-7pm and pluging in their cars to recharge. The quoted numbers ignore the fact that smart meters will tailor the charging rate to what the grid can support and that for people doing the average 8 mile commute the amount of power required to recharge their car will not  be much more than that used to wash a dry a load of washing. It also ignores millions of people who take public transport to work and whose cars will be recharged during the day, possibly from home solar panels (for us a standard 4kw installation would supply more than enough power to keep the car charged). 

 

 

 

 

 

[kzb]

11 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Tesla is claiming 98% http://www.power-mag.com/pdf/feature_pdf/1310569074_Teslaco_Feature_Layout_1.pdf

 

But does this depend on a special main power supply?  Perhaps cashinmattress could comment on this.

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

But does this depend on a special main power supply?  Perhaps cashinmattress could comment on this.

No a three phase supply the norm for power transmission and most industrial use of electricity. A single phase is usually delivered to domestic houses but delivering 3 phase requires no extra equipment or cost beyond providing the power point.   

[kzb]

13 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 The quoted numbers ignore the fact that smart meters will tailor the charging rate to what the grid can support and that for people doing the average 8 mile commute the amount of power required to recharge their car will not  be much more than that used to wash a dry a load of washing. It also ignores millions of people who take public transport to work and whose cars will be recharged during the day, possibly from home solar panels (for us a standard 4kw installation would supply more than enough power to keep the car charged). 

 

I think leaving it to individuals and the markets is not the right approach.

I do 60 miles a day on motorways.  A solar panel will not supply enough power especially in winter.  I guesstimate I will need about 100kW-h per week (there are some good things about this, that 100kW-h will cost about £12-13 at today's electricity price, much less than I spend on petrol).

The Smart meter: fantastic, so I won't even know how long it is going to take to recharge in advance !  It's going to be a nightmare.

Most persons on these forums support massive building on green-field sites as part of the solution to house prices.  These green field sites will not usually have any public transport to speak of and will be many miles from the workplaces.  Each household will need two cars at least.

Outside London the vast majority of people commute by car.  Unfortunate but true, and it's often their only realistic option.

If we are going to do this, as someone said the other week, we've chosen to go to the moon, all we need now is a NASA to make it happen.

 

 

 

[kzb]

How big is a 4kW solar panel array (guessing 25 square metres)?  How much does it cost?

[Confusion of VIs]

3 minutes ago, kzb said:

How big is a 4kW solar panel array (guessing 25 square metres)?  How much does it cost?

Pretty close about 24sqm with high efficiency panels.

Prices are coming down all the time you should be able to have one installed for around £3,000. A little less if you carry our or arrange installation yourself.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4kW-4000W-Solar-Panel-PV-Kit-System-for-House-Self-Install-DIY-MCS-CHEAPEST-/172787910863?hash=item283af648cf:g:U2sAAOSwUFtZaInN

 

[kzb]

5 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Pretty close about 24sqm with high efficiency panels.

Prices are coming down all the time you should be able to have one installed for around £3,000. A little less if you carry our or arrange installation yourself.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4kW-4000W-Solar-Panel-PV-Kit-System-for-House-Self-Install-DIY-MCS-CHEAPEST-/172787910863?hash=item283af648cf:g:U2sAAOSwUFtZaInN

 

OK thanks for that.  I guess at 100kW-h per week requirement for electric car charging my payback time would be quite reasonable.

It won't produce 4kW in winter though.  I think the 4kW is predicated on 1000W/sqm irradiation, which is about the maximum on Earth, with direct sunshine perpendicular to the panel surface.

[onlooker]

5 hours ago, kzb said:

I think leaving it to individuals and the markets is not the right approach.

I do 60 miles a day on motorways.  A solar panel will not supply enough power especially in winter.  I guesstimate I will need about 100kW-h per week (there are some good things about this, that 100kW-h will cost about £12-13 at today's electricity price, much less than I spend on petrol).

The Smart meter: fantastic, so I won't even know how long it is going to take to recharge in advance !  It's going to be a nightmare.

Most persons on these forums support massive building on green-field sites as part of the solution to house prices.  These green field sites will not usually have any public transport to speak of and will be many miles from the workplaces.  Each household will need two cars at least.

Outside London the vast majority of people commute by car.  Unfortunate but true, and it's often their only realistic option.

If we are going to do this, as someone said the other week, we've chosen to go to the moon, all we need now is a NASA to make it happen.

 

 

 

The 100kW-h costs much less than petrol, because 70% of what you pay at the pump is tax. The Govt depends on that tax income. WIthout petrol to tax, what do you think will be taxed instead?

[Confusion of VIs]

10 hours ago, kzb said:

I think leaving it to individuals and the markets is not the right approach.

I do 60 miles a day on motorways.  A solar panel will not supply enough power especially in winter.  I guesstimate I will need about 100kW-h per week (there are some good things about this, that 100kW-h will cost about £12-13 at today's electricity price, much less than I spend on petrol).

The Smart meter: fantastic, so I won't even know how long it is going to take to recharge in advance !  It's going to be a nightmare.

Most persons on these forums support massive building on green-field sites as part of the solution to house prices.  These green field sites will not usually have any public transport to speak of and will be many miles from the workplaces.  Each household will need two cars at least.

Outside London the vast majority of people commute by car.  Unfortunate but true, and it's often their only realistic option.

If we are going to do this, as someone said the other week, we've chosen to go to the moon, all we need now is a NASA to make it happen.

I think you are falling into looking for problems rather than solutions. 

The smart meter will most likely give you the option of a discounted rate if you agree that the charging rate can be altered according to the load on the system, with a guarantee that charging will be completed by an agreed time. No problem unless you sometimes need to go for a maximum range journey in the middle of the night. 

They might support it but its probably not the right answer to house prices, not without properly integrated public transport anyway, and not likely to happen anytime soon. 

Looking on the bright side, think how much more flexible and resilient the national grid will be when at any time there are millions of high capacity batteries plugged into it which can be used to smooth demand or absorb the excess power from renewables that is currently wasted during times of high supply and low demand. 

 

 

[winkie]

.....having choices has to be better than lack of choice and being totally vulnerable to one source of energy......for example freedom to use petrol to move, freedom to use cash money to spend, freedom to move and spend freely without being tracked or monitored.

......another way of looking at the word 'crash' when/if the system crashes.....having no alternative is not progress it is total loss of control......just saying.

 

[Errol]

Royal Mail's new electric vans unveiled

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41025771

[Riedquat]

That looks like a toy model.

[Errol]

Yes, it's very cute but also a little silly.

[cashinmattress]

On 09/08/2017 at 0:20 AM, Confusion of VIs said:

Looking on the bright side, think how much more flexible and resilient the national grid will be when at any time there are millions of high capacity batteries plugged into it which can be used to smooth demand or absorb the excess power from renewables that is currently wasted during times of high supply and low demand. 

Seems you know nothing about power generation or distribution...how about AC Vs DC? Do you understand that?

You should do a TED talk.

[Peter Hun]

17 hours ago, Errol said:

Yes, it's very cute but also a little silly.

It's a computer rendering.

[kzb]

19 hours ago, Errol said:

Royal Mail's new electric vans unveiled

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41025771

This makes sense. 

Electric delivery vehicles in urban areas could make a real contribution to air quality.  Large organisations have the resources to provide charging facilities for their vehicle fleets.

 But it's not the delivery vehicles (or buses and taxis)  that get the blame.  It's us.

[Confusion of VIs]

9 hours ago, cashinmattress said:

Seems you know nothing about power generation or distribution...how about AC Vs DC? Do you understand that?

You should do a TED talk.

Clearly rather more than you ...... Yes, and also the obvious solution to the non problem you are imagining.

And to think that just a few posts ago you were calling someone a smarmy git!

[Guest]

A bit of light relief:

[Mash] Electric car owner excited to spend quality time in tow truck

Quote

THE owner of a new electric car is excited about being towed everywhere.

Speaking from the cab of a recovery vehicle, Julian Cook said: “Who knew that buying a battery-powered car in a country with barely any electric car charging infrastructure would lead to me getting stuck so often?

 

[pmgdawau]

13 hours ago, cashinmattress said:

Seems you know nothing about power generation or distribution...how about AC Vs DC? Do you understand that?

You should do a TED talk.

better tell EDF/grid that they are doing it wrong

http://media.edfenergy.com/r/1148/edf_energy_renewables_wins_contract_for_49_mw_battery

 

[PopGun]

On 08/08/2017 at 5:59 PM, onlooker said:

The 100kW-h costs much less than petrol, because 70% of what you pay at the pump is tax. The Govt depends on that tax income. WIthout petrol to tax, what do you think will be taxed instead?

Bingo.