Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

My point is this:

• UK doesn't "make the vaccine"
• EU doesn't "make the vaccine"
• Lots of doses have been exported from the EU
• No doses have been exported from the UK

Look, I agreed with you many weeks back that the UK is reaping the rewards for its deep and early investment. I am glad we've done this and think that the UK is entitled to benefit.

But it is obvious that this whole thing has been politicised by brexiters, once again, just like "poor Greek people" and "Catalonia" and anything else they can latch onto because they think it gives them some moral high ground. 

I'm just tired of watching humans go round and round in circles lying to themselves. Where is the outrage about India? None. Not one screech. It is blindingly obvious that this is just a perpetuation of the war on Europe (yes, Europe, not the EU).

I agree the whole argument is bullsheet. There is a complex supply chain and you cannot simply say the EU exports and the UK doesn't. The UK and EU have agreed on this point and there is nothing to fight about anymore. The fact that the EU has exported vaccines is irrelevant to the UK, it should have ensured its own supply chain was robust enough first.

I'm not arguing this from a Brexit viewpoint because this has nothing to do with Brexit- yelims is trying to make it so. Is there any brixiteers here claiming it is?

I fail to see your point about India. India has most of the Vaccine production for the world and the owner of SI volunteered to go big on the Oxford/Jenner Vaccine. Now the Nationalistic government has blocked exports, but where is the surprise in that? This is why everyone was given their own AZN  supply chain but some countries apparently also used factories in the EU (Australia).  Predictable result. 

 

[thecrashingisles]

2 minutes ago, miguel said:

The EU is a state when it suits him, it isn't a state when it suits him. The ultimate brexiteer. 

I'm someone who voted Remain and went to all the stop Brexit marches in London. "The ultimate Brexiteer"?

[yelims]

12 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

I'm someone who voted Remain and went to all the stop Brexit marches in London. "The ultimate Brexiteer"?

You’re no true Scotsman 

[Peter Hun]

50 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

The EU was wrong to go about it in an incompetent manner. So far they seem to have prioritised their commercial interests over their citizens.

That's correct. Bet on German and French vaccines with the AZN as an afterthought. The rest of the EU wanted the cheap AZN with its high temp storage however. And the French vaccine failed.

Why have they allowed a French vaccine to be made in the UK ahead of the EU?

[Peter Hun]

15 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

I'm someone who voted Remain and went to all the stop Brexit marches in London. "The ultimate Brexiteer"?

Apparent I'm a Brexiteer now.

[kzb]

3 hours ago, dugsbody said:

You have your head buried in the sand. The UK statistically is still a fair and open minded country compared to many others. Sadly, it has descended into a divided country as you say.

However, you can't see reality.

The culture war is perpetuated by the right wing, ie. the Conservative party and their media chums and their sheep followers. This suits them perfectly, because it helps the tribe close up ranks and ignore their leaders corruption and incompetence. They stir up hate of the "other" (whoever that might conveniently be) making their followers fear that their lives are being threatened by (take your pick through the ages) gay people, black people, young people, benefit scroungers, immigrants, boat people, the French, the Germans, the EU, Scottish, etc, etc.

It is incredibly effective.

If you constantly reinforce that gay people, black people, young people and women are victims of a hateful, racist and misogynistic country built by war criminals this is what you get.

[yelims]

12 minutes ago, kzb said:

If you constantly reinforce that gay people, black people, young people and women are victims of a hateful, racist and misogynistic country built by war criminals this is what you get.

 hate to break it to you and I understand if your history books airbrush things but UK was built on back of racism, colonialism, war, subjugation by what today would be considered as war crimes,

[dugsbody]

15 minutes ago, kzb said:

If you constantly reinforce that gay people, black people, young people and women are victims of a hateful, racist and misogynistic country built by war criminals this is what you get.

Ah right, so it's the fault of the gays, blacks, young etc.

Gotcha.

[dugsbody]

18 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

Apparent I'm a Brexiteer now.

@thecrashingisles

I disagree with the others who are classifying you two.

But I think you've both developed a blind spot here to a degree. You've followed the last 5-6 years (and before), you know that brexiters have a habit of weaponising anything they think can be used against the EU.

There are reasons that brexiters are screaming about attacks on "the UK vaccine" and they're mostly not driven by reason, they're driven by the usual hatred of matters European. 

This becomes obvious when you step outside of the bubble for a moment. Look at the screeches of rage when the German medical regulator dared to question "the UK vaccine". Apparently it was doing so to purposely endanger the lives of its citizens for political reasons because of brexit. They were apparently inventing reasons to discredit the Oxford vaccine, again, apparently only because it shows the UK success and they couldn't handle that.

Come on! In what world can you live on and believe this to be true? 

Now, it turns out that the blood clots are actually real (very rare of course) and like every single other argument in the whole brexit saga, there is no apology, no acknowledging that they were over the top. Nope, they just shift the argument subtly and re-write history.

It's all so depressing because this is just the same human stupidity and emotional recklessness that haunts our entire history. It is exactly these things that cause regular people to go to war and kill their fellow humans because they've worked themselves up into a frenzy of hatred.

 

(For the record, I'm not trying to get bogged down into an argument about who is definitely right and wrong, because as I have already said, the UK did right and is reaping the rewards, we all are, and the EU made mistakes - but not for bad reasons - and so they're behind and trying to rectify this. The issue is nuances but nuance doesn't help the Daily Mail, Express hate brigade. They need black and white, them vs us, hate the other, protect the tribe)

[kzb]

22 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Ah right, so it's the fault of the gays, blacks, young etc.

Gotcha.

You know full well I'm not.  In fact the majority in these groups will be embarrassed every time a new virtue signalling piece appears on the BBC or C4.  Which is constantly.

[kzb]

29 minutes ago, yelims said:

 hate to break it to you and I understand if your history books airbrush things but UK was built on back of racism, colonialism, war, subjugation by what today would be considered as war crimes,

So is yours.  The difference is, in the time since then, we've given the world a lot, what have you lot done?

[yelims]

Just now, kzb said:

So is yours.  The difference is, in the time since then, we've given the world a lot, what have you lot done?

Not kill millions of people?

[dugsbody]

15 minutes ago, kzb said:

You know full well I'm not.  In fact the majority in these groups will be embarrassed every time a new virtue signalling piece appears on the BBC or C4.  Which is constantly.

Yes, the libs are to blame for being too pushy, right. Libs, blacks, gays, young.

If only there was a political party filled with conservative people like minded to you, who you could elect and who could run the country for most of its history. That would surely make everything better and then these libs wouldn't be making you have to be the way you are.

[zugzwang]

57 minutes ago, kzb said:

If you constantly reinforce that gay people, black people, young people and women are victims of a hateful, racist and misogynistic country built by war criminals this is what you get.

Anti-woke apostle Lol Fox fails to say sorry.

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2021/04/laurence-fox-lawsuit-gets-expensive.html

Quote

Laurence Fox is going to discover that his freedom of speech remains unconstrained. His problem is that he does not have freedom from its consequences.

He might usefully consider what happened to pro-am motormouth Katie Hopkins.

Lol.

[andrewwk]

50 minutes ago, yelims said:

 hate to break it to you and I understand if your history books airbrush things but UK was built on back of racism, colonialism, war, subjugation by what today would be considered as war crimes,

the whole of human history is based on racism and warfare. for the past couple of hundred years, Europeans (yes, Europeans, not just Brits, look at e.g. the atrocities committed in the name of empire building by the likes of Belgium in Africa) have been in the ascendancy, looting and pillaging, but in the past the boot has been on the other foot. personally not going to walk around self-flagellating here, the legacy is a mix of bad and good.

[andrewwk]

6 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Yes, the libs are to blame for being too pushy, right. Libs, blacks, gays, young.

If only there was a political party filled with conservative people like minded to you, who you could elect and who could run the country for most of its history. That would surely make everything better and then these libs wouldn't be making you have to be the way you are.

I have some sympathy for both sides of this debate. True, the history is horrendous, but I am not sure that means we should chuck out 2000 years of Western civilisation (with all the amazing advances that it has brought). And before you say that this is a straw man, it does sometimes seem that some on the left do wish to effect some kind of cultural revolution (btw see where that got China) and wipe the slate clean. Oh for a bit of centrism!

[wighty]

 

Hey Mannie, these knickers are a bit small these days.

Oo lala Angie, c'est brexit

 

 

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

@thecrashingisles

I disagree with the others who are classifying you two.

But I think you've both developed a blind spot here to a degree. You've followed the last 5-6 years (and before), you know that brexiters have a habit of weaponising anything they think can be used against the EU.

There are reasons that brexiters are screaming about attacks on "the UK vaccine" and they're mostly not driven by reason, they're driven by the usual hatred of matters European. 

This becomes obvious when you step outside of the bubble for a moment. Look at the screeches of rage when the German medical regulator dared to question "the UK vaccine". Apparently it was doing so to purposely endanger the lives of its citizens for political reasons because of brexit. They were apparently inventing reasons to discredit the Oxford vaccine, again, apparently only because it shows the UK success and they couldn't handle that.

Come on! In what world can you live on and believe this to be true? 

Now, it turns out that the blood clots are actually real (very rare of course) and like every single other argument in the whole brexit saga, there is no apology, no acknowledging that they were over the top. Nope, they just shift the argument subtly and re-write history.

It's all so depressing because this is just the same human stupidity and emotional recklessness that haunts our entire history. It is exactly these things that cause regular people to go to war and kill their fellow humans because they've worked themselves up into a frenzy of hatred.

 

(For the record, I'm not trying to get bogged down into an argument about who is definitely right and wrong, because as I have already said, the UK did right and is reaping the rewards, we all are, and the EU made mistakes - but not for bad reasons - and so they're behind and trying to rectify this. The issue is nuances but nuance doesn't help the Daily Mail, Express hate brigade. They need black and white, them vs us, hate the other, protect the tribe)

I completely agree. However I could not give two hoots what the right wingnutz are saying about it

 If its true then its true.

I'm not going to fall into the same mindset and argue against facts because its useful for my political argument. 

Politicians and Brexiteers did not make vaccines, scientists did. OK, the government and Hancock in particular funded them. But this is not about brexit and I will not accept any claim by the Brexiteers that it is.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, yelims said:

Not kill millions of people?

+1

[debtlessmanc]

2 hours ago, yelims said:

 hate to break it to you and I understand if your history books airbrush things but UK was built on back of racism, colonialism, war, subjugation by what today would be considered as war crimes,

For most of the time it existed the British Empire lost the UK money, Adam Smith analysed it in "The Wealth of Nations" and promptly announced the Empire was a waste of money. Most of it (yes including Ireland) was acquired in fits of English paranoia that the continental powers would get there first. India, North America, Australia all acquired to stop the French getting them. The first fleet arrived in australia literally a few weeks before the french equivalent, they sailed off to colonize NZ and got wrecked in a storm.

Where did the UK's money come from? - well we did invent the steam engine and we were the world biggest producer of coal from 1890-1910, and the worlds biggest producer of oil in the 90's

We are an island built on coal surrounded by a sea full of fish as Nye Bevan observed.

Edited April 7, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[yelims]

1 hour ago, andrewwk said:

the whole of human history is based on racism and warfare. for the past couple of hundred years, Europeans (yes, Europeans, not just Brits, look at e.g. the atrocities committed in the name of empire building by the likes of Belgium in Africa) have been in the ascendancy, looting and pillaging, but in the past the boot has been on the other foot. personally not going to walk around self-flagellating here, the legacy is a mix of bad and good.

So the reply is whataboutism?

He made an absurd claim and I pointed out to him he is being silly as the country was build on some fairly awful carry on against both to people in and out of these isles. 
 

it’s fascinating how right wing neo fascists go on about cancel culture yet have no problems cancelling history 

Edited April 7, 2021 by yelims

[sPinwheel]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

Yes, the libs are to blame for being too pushy, right. Libs, blacks, gays, young.

Yup, scapegoats and sacrificial lambs are to blame. If only I could obtain such animals.

[andrewwk]

2 minutes ago, yelims said:

So the reply is whataboutism?

He made an absurd claim and I pointed out to him he is being silly as the country was build on some fairly awful carry on against both to people in and out of these isles. 

no, I just don't think that Western self-hatred is the route to follow.

[yelims]

16 minutes ago, andrewwk said:

no, I just don't think that Western self-hatred is the route to follow.

forgetting and not learning from history is a worse route to follow 

 

Brexit is just the first step on a path that these neo fascist Tories are taking you, they already moved into dismantling rights such as peaceful protest.

Edited April 7, 2021 by yelims
Typo

[Huggy]

12 minutes ago, yelims said:

peaceful protest.

😂😂😂🔥