Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[IMHAL]

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

We dismiss these arguments. They might not be intelligent, but nor are we.

??????

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

To convince, you would have to give him a potential vision that he would miss out on. If you feel like the modern world has taken away the status that people like you should enjoy, it will be hard to believe.

He has already achieved what he wants. Out of the EU. There is nothing else that matters more to him than being out and staying out. Because he has a vision of the EU being an imperfect construct (arn't they all!), of it collapsing, degrading or whatever - he knows all this because only he can see into the future, no one else can. 

[Bob8]

3 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

??????

He has already achieved what he wants. Out of the EU. There is nothing else that matters more to him than being out and staying out. Because he has a vision of the EU being an imperfect construct (arn't they all!), of it collapsing, degrading or whatever - he knows all this because only he can see into the future, no one else can. 

Yes, and that is quite a common vision.

Take groups that have lost out in modern society and political discourse and are convinced that they should be regardess more highly tend to support brexit (white, male, older, stupid, arrogant). This makes sense as things will go back to normal and people like him will therefore be better off.

If you are going to call that out as nonsense, there there is a huge amount of baggage and self-esteem to take down with it.

Imagine in creationism were true. If you had proof, I do not believe you would be able to convince me. I would see it as nonsense. what I could not refute I would dismiss. Having worked in molecular biology for so long, I am invested, and I do not have the intellectual hubris or personal skin in the game.

[crouch]

8 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Your financial forecasts and spending plans represent a future state that deviations from have to be dealt with, so to all intents and purposes a real state. 

Ah, now we have a glimmer that we are talking at cross purposes.

I was not talking about forecasts and deviations therefrom at all; I am talking about an actual state. In 2021 our actual GDP will be Y. Y is the Brexit GDP because we have left the EU. But you, and others, say that if we had stayed in the EU our 2021 GDP would be Y(E) and that Y(E) > Y. But the difference is a theoretical gap, the result of a calculation; Y is the actual figure. You cannot experience the loss (Y(E) - Y) because that represents a theoretical state of affairs; it is something that hasn't been achieved.

8 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

For the 2018-19 financial year the Treasury said they had a £17bn Brexit related shortfall in the planned for taxation receipts. Real or not this had to I taken account of as can be seen by the huge increase in real v planned borrowing. 

Of course any difference between GDP under Brexit and in the EU will have consequences and to deny that is foolish but we are not talking about that. I am talking about the perceived differences betweentwo states and the impossibility of making a comparison in future years between how we have fared outside the EU and how we would have fared within it.

9 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

NB Did you say you were an accountant, or am I confusing you with someone else.

I was indeed an accountant but this has nothing to do with accounting. 

[DarkHorseWaits-NoMore]

8 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

Good old John Redwood...

 

In case anyone missed the details:

And there it is. Having whined (misleadingly) that Parliament did not get a vote on free trade agreements negotiated by the EU, John Redwood just voted against Parliament getting a vote on FTAs negotiated by the *UK government*: https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/820?byMember=True#noes Contemptible hypocrisy.

And it was less than 24 hours he whinged about it too. Amazing.
John Redwood: Parliament had no chance to vote down trade deals we did not like when the EU did them for us.

[IMHAL]

20 minutes ago, DarkHorseWaits-NoMore said:

In case anyone missed the details:

And there it is. Having whined (misleadingly) that Parliament did not get a vote on free trade agreements negotiated by the EU, John Redwood just voted against Parliament getting a vote on FTAs negotiated by the *UK government*: https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/820?byMember=True#noes Contemptible hypocrisy.

And it was less than 24 hours he whinged about it too. Amazing.
John Redwood: Parliament had no chance to vote down trade deals we did not like when the EU did them for us.

Of course, Brexit must not be allowed to come under any sort of scrutiny, especially when it comes to doing trade deals with the US - wouldn't want the plebs to know that the are going to get raped in advance. 

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

23 minutes ago, DarkHorseWaits-NoMore said:

In case anyone missed the details:

And there it is. Having whined (misleadingly) that Parliament did not get a vote on free trade agreements negotiated by the EU, John Redwood just voted against Parliament getting a vote on FTAs negotiated by the *UK government*: https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/820?byMember=True#noes Contemptible hypocrisy.

And it was less than 24 hours he whinged about it too. Amazing.
John Redwood: Parliament had no chance to vote down trade deals we did not like when the EU did them for us.

#takingbackcontrol

[Bruce Banner]

13 hours ago, crouch said:

In a liberal democracy with a reasonably free press just how do you evade scrutiny?

And just to make it clearer: I am not trying to evade criticism - reasonable or unreasonable.

You state that the matter is closed and refuse to discuss it. At least that's what our disgraceful government does.

[dugsbody]

47 minutes ago, DarkHorseWaits-NoMore said:

In case anyone missed the details:

And there it is. Having whined (misleadingly) that Parliament did not get a vote on free trade agreements negotiated by the EU, John Redwood just voted against Parliament getting a vote on FTAs negotiated by the *UK government*: https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/820?byMember=True#noes Contemptible hypocrisy.

And it was less than 24 hours he whinged about it too. Amazing.
John Redwood: Parliament had no chance to vote down trade deals we did not like when the EU did them for us.

0

That is the amount of ******s given by any brexiter.

They don't care. Ask yourself why don't they care? All their arguments are crumbling with things like this, but they ignore them. Why? 

Then ask yourself, what would a brexiters reaction be if the vote had been to continue freedom of movement with the EU. Do you think they would still not have cared?

Edited July 21, 2020 by dugsbody

[Bob8]

19 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

0

That is the amount of ******s given by any brexiter.

They don't care. Ask yourself why don't they care? All their arguments are crumbling with things like this, but they ignore them. Why? 

Then ask yourself, what would a brexiters reaction be if the vote had been to continue freedom of movement with the EU. Do you think they would still not have cared?

Yes, because they thought it mattered to them, but they were mistaken. That is not unusual.

[crouch]

40 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

You state that the matter is closed and refuse to discuss it. At least that's what our disgraceful government does.

And does that mean it does not get discussed and that there are no political consequences from refusing to discuss it?

[byron78]

I predict a proper report into Russian interference now.

As a Leaver and a patriot I'm shocked that, despite our intelligence services indeed deeming that Russia has (and does) seek to interfer in our democracy, we haven't actually bothered to try to find out by how much (and what effects it's had)!

Absolutely shocking stuff that.

I still want Brexit.

But I grew up during the Cold War, and I simply wouldn't have believed this possible in my lifetime.

 

[Bruce Banner]

Everyone that can should be watching the release of the Russia report now on TV news.

Very revealing of the governments attempts to ignore any interference with the EU referendum.

[Bruce Banner]

25 minutes ago, crouch said:

And does that mean it does not get discussed and that there are no political consequences from refusing to discuss it?

That appears to be the case. Journalists don't want to be banned from Downing St., they have mouths to feed.

[slawek]

4 minutes ago, byron78 said:

I predict a proper report into Russian interference now.

As a Leaver and a patriot I'm shocked that, despite our intelligence services indeed deeming that Russia has (and does) seek to interfer in our democracy, we haven't actually bothered to try to find out by how much (and what effects it's had)!

Absolutely shocking stuff that.

I still want Brexit.

But I grew up during the Cold War, and I simply wouldn't have believed this possible in my lifetime.

 

Why are you shocked?

The UK has been selling itself to any scum of this planet with decent money for some time. London is just a playground and a money laundering center for them.  

[Bruce Banner]

7 minutes ago, byron78 said:

I predict a proper report into Russian interference now.

As a Leaver and a patriot I'm shocked that, despite our intelligence services indeed deeming that Russia has (and does) seek to interfer in our democracy, we haven't actually bothered to try to find out by how much (and what effects it's had)!

Absolutely shocking stuff that.

I still want Brexit.

But I grew up during the Cold War, and I simply wouldn't have believed this possible in my lifetime.

 

Worse than that, the committee is saying that the government actively avoided asking.

Also, they are saying that the government has lied.

[IMHAL]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Worse than that, the committee is saying that the government actively avoided asking.

Also, they are saying that the government has lied.

They also said that Russian bots and trolls are everywhere....comes as no surprise to us.... Russia has much to gain from Brexit and the weakening of the EU trade block... 

[NoHPCinTheUK]

Meanwhile, in Bruxelles, the EU27 reached an historic agreement. The mood on the continental press is that without the British life is so much easier. Germany and France were interested in more integration and it seems they got what they wanted, Italy more net money and they had it. 
 

[Bruce Banner]

4 minutes ago, Neapolitan said:

Meanwhile, in Bruxelles, the EU27 reached an historic agreement. The mood on the continental press is that without the British life is so much easier. Germany and France were interested in more integration and it seems they got what they wanted, Italy more net money and they had it. 
 

Yet, according to the Brexiteers, we had no influence which is why we've "taken back control".

[MARTINX9]

40 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

They also said that Russian bots and trolls are everywhere....comes as no surprise to us.... Russia has much to gain from Brexit and the weakening of the EU trade block... 

I expect if remain and Clinton had won in 2016 we would never have heard anything about it of course. It was only once the 'wrong' side won that this problem was identified - not a single mention of Russian interference before voting day of course. The conclusion seems to be - we could find no evidence but we are going to imply there is because we didn't look hard enough!

Some People couldn’t accept the result so there had to be some nefarious goings on to explain how Brits or Americans voted - it simply couldn’t be they voted for what they actually wanted!

All the main global institutions, big corporations and the financial sector as well as most European governments and the US President openly backed remain. No one seems too worried about JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs our facebook influencing our democratic process for their benefit or enrichment by offering politicians from Blair to Borroso to Clegg very well paid jobs after the leave office. Bought and paid for one might suggest - but of course I have no evidence as I haven't looked hard enough?!

And there is still not a shred of evidence that anyone's vote was actually changed - as the section of society most likely to spend their days on twitter - the young and/or urban middle classes - overwhelmingly voted remain or for Clinton.  People who live in Michigan or Stoke who have seen the downsides of austerity, globalisation and the disappearance of well paid manufacturing jobs probably weren't paying much attention to twitter bots one might suggest - but reacting to what was going on in their real world experience. 

 

PS And the laughable hypocrisy of the UK and USA complaining about people ‘interfering’ in their elections and democratic processes when they have been doing it for decades to other nations to deliver the 'right' outcomes from Iran to Chile to Nicaragua etc etc. We didn’t just interfere - we helped over throw democratically elected governments to instal more friendly dictators! 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by MARTINX9

[IMHAL]

38 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

I expect if remain and Clinton had won in 2016 we would never have heard anything about it of course. It was only once the 'wrong' side won that this problem was identified - not a single mention of Russian interference before voting day of course. The conclusion seems to be - we could find no evidence but we are going to imply there is because we didn't look hard enough!

Are you questioning the independence of the committee and their conclusions?

I think, given the current evidence and strategy of Russia's meddling that you use of 'implied' is really taking the piss.  

38 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

All the main global institutions, big corporations and the financial sector as well as most European governments and the US President openly backed remain. No one seems too worried about JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs our facebook influencing or democratic process for their benefit or enrichment by offering politicians from Blair to Borroso to Clegg very well paid jobs after the leave office. Bought and paid for one might suggest - but of course I have no evidence as I haven't looked hard enough?!

Bussiness have a right to influence, if they have legitimate skin in the game. Foriegn powers, not so. 

38 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

And there is still not a shred of evidence that anyone's vote was actually changed - as the section of society most likely to spend their days on twitter - the young and/or urban middle classes - overwhelmingly voted remain or for Clinton.  People who live in Michigan or Stoke who have seen the downsides of austerity, globalisation and the disappearance of well paid manufacturing jobs probably weren't paying much attention to twitter bots one might suggest - but reacting to what was going on in their real world experience.

 

 

Erm - that would be becaue they have not even asked the question, looked into it in enough detail - as stated in the report.

38 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

PS And the laughable hypocrisy of the UK and USA complaining about people interfering in their elections and democratic processes when they have been doing it for decades to other nations to deliver the 'right' outcomes from Iran to Chile to Nicaragua etc etc. 

 

 

Fair point - but the whole game has evolved and we are behind in our understanding.

All reasonable questions.The key difference is that Russia is a threat to our way of life. They are actively looking to destabilise the UK, the EU and America. Brexit for example is, in the words of one Brexiteer, a rock the kasbah moment. There is no real plan, it destabalises the UK, weakens the EU.....all excellent for Russia...job well done...bravo.

Edited July 21, 2020 by IMHAL

[MARTINX9]

34 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Reasonable question.The key difference is that Russia is a threat to our way of life. They are actively looking to destabilise the UK, the EU and America. Brexit for example is, in the words of one Brexiteer, a rock the kasbah moment. There is no real plan, it destabalises the UK, weakens the EU.....all excellent for Russia...job well done...bravo.

Well we had a Tory majority government in 2016 and we have one with a bigger majority now.

Any change causes some destabilisation - if we took that view we would never have had an  NHS or welfare state and women would still not have the vote.

People did vote for change and against the system as the system apparently wasn’t delivering for them - some may not like the result but you win some and you lose some.

It’s easier to blame Putin than to actually solve the problems and adverse impacts of a cheap labour economy built on unskilled service jobs to serve a select few,  unaffordable housing, lack of social mobility and austerity caused by globalisation and big capital and big business buying up our political systems. Our new crony capitalism world of privatising profits but bailouts, cheap money and socialising of any losses for big banks and big business but not of course the little people paying 4000% for pay day loans!

Putin didn’t cause those problems - our politicians and those who influence them do.   It’s easier to blame him of course than Goldman or JPM or Blair and Brown or Cameron and Clegg who were the architects of where we are today.

I might suggest that our crony capitalist system is a pretty big threat to our way of life - you can actually see what it’s done to millions!

Edited July 21, 2020 by MARTINX9

[IMHAL]

1 minute ago, MARTINX9 said:

Well we had a Tory majority government in 2016 and we have one with a bigger majority now.

Any change causes some destabilisation - if we took that view we would never have had an  NHS or welfare state and women would still not have the vote.

People did vote for change and against the system as the system apparently wasn’t delivering for them. It’s easier to blame Putin than to actually solve the problems and adverse impacts of a cheap labour economy built on unskilled service jobs to serve a select few,  unaffordable housing, lack of social mobility and austerity caused by globalisation and big capital and big business buying up our political systems. Our new crony capitalism world of privatising profits but bailouts, cheap money and socialising of any losses for big banks and big business but not of course the little people paying 4000% for pay day loans!

Putin didn’t cause those problems - our politicians and those who influence them do.  

And how is Brexit specifically going to address any of those issues?

And I agree with you, our politicians made those problems. Yet you and your ilk blame the EU. 

You have been played.

[Bob8]

3 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

Well we had a Tory majority government in 2016 and we have one with a bigger majority now.

Any change causes some destabilisation - if we took that view we would never have had an  NHS or welfare state and women would still not have the vote.

People did vote for change and against the system as the system apparently wasn’t delivering for them - some may not like the result but you win some and you lose some.

It’s easier to blame Putin than to actually solve the problems and adverse impacts of a cheap labour economy built on unskilled service jobs to serve a select few,  unaffordable housing, lack of social mobility and austerity caused by globalisation and big capital and big business buying up our political systems. Our new crony capitalism world of privatising profits but bailouts, cheap money and socialising of any losses for big banks and big business but not of course the little people paying 4000% for pay day loans!

Putin didn’t cause those problems - our politicians and those who influence them do.  

No-one really thinks they were swayed by propaganda. Which is hubris.

Oddly, people who generally were for brexit resist Russia making any difference. This does not apply so much to those wanting Scottish independence.

I do not accept that we should only address one problem or threat and ignore all others, but we can agree to disagree on that.

[Bob8]

2 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

And how is Brexit specifically going to address any of those issues?

And I agree with you, our politicians made those problems. Yet you and your ilk blame the EU. 

You have been played.

It is the suggestion of being played that makes people reject it. The most enthusiastic brexiters, such as those on forums, will often think that remainers are the naive suseptible ones.

It was strange to suggest that making a scapegoat and not tackling our problems is the issue, therefore we should leave the EU and blame them rather then the Government tackle the problems.

[MARTINX9]

2 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

And how is Brexit specifically going to address any of those issues?

And I agree with you, our politicians made those problems. Yet you and your ilk blame the EU. 

You have been played.

Well if this is a debate about democracy then surely the ability to vote out those who rule you and make your laws is rather important.. And also the ability to elect those decide your own trade policy, border and immigration policies and more.

A rather basic principle one might suggest - and when was there a public vote for Barroso, Juncker, Tusk or van der Leyen.

After all if election results don’t matter why bother with them? Putin can attempt to interfere all he likes but if those we elect aren’t in charge then it makes no difference?

And the real power players - global media corporations like google and banks like GS  - just laugh all the way to the bank!