Gigantic Purple Slug Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, kzb said: I just bemoaning how it got to this stage in the first place. Also highlighting that EU-UK trade is not some fantastic brilliant thing, in reality it is a problem that needs fixing. Proceeding with a view to going back in: no we shouldn't do this. After all this trouble we should do what is best for British people not the EU. However this is an interesting point and I have no doubt that this is what will happen. In my experience, it is funny how US standards get used round the world. Do you think global corporations take any notice of the "local" standards in the "territories" in which they operate? These corporations are above the law now. Largely due to the drive to greater profitability, normally made by having less and less contingency. Then when it all goes t*ts up "noone could have possibly foreseen this happening", and directors with huge bonuses rapidly making themselves scarce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, kzb said: I do find it strange that the Social Justice League could have this view of the poor exploited peoples. The 'poor exploited peoples' just voted for even more of the same. They must like it? Now it's SHOW rather than TELL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Did you write the script for this? No but I wish I had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Rebalancing the UK economy away from borrowing and consumption is the plot. Anything else is just spillikins in the parlour on the way to national bankruptcy. Oh I agree. But Labour have to be aware of optics which these days, sadly, is well over 50% of the battle - personality matters more than policy. As I said in a post many pages ago, Corbyn always will be slurred by the majority right wing press. Anti-Semitic attacks have increased over 20% since the referendum - but Corbyn hates Jews apparently which is much more important /s. The odds are always against massive change as we live in an Alice-in-Wonderland country where the only things you can rely on is the mega-rich getting even more mega-rich. It's now deeply structural. Edited January 17, 2020 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, jonb2 said: The 'poor exploited peoples' just voted for even more of the same. They must like it? Now it's SHOW rather than TELL. According to the Social Justice League, the British Working Class are Thick Northerners. Who deserve everything they get. The Socialist Workers Party would never talk like that. How things change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 On 16/01/2020 at 10:34, crouch said: No - just subtle; there is a difference you know. Well a sense of humour can cover a multitude of sins However I don't accept your fatalistic hypothesis. The future is unmade We can use intelligence to plan for the future. Britain can plan to punch above its weight - provided it doesn't punch itself in the face with Brexit first. Are you not able to sit back and think 'well my thinking on this is a bit odd' ? Nor does it sit comfortably in Crouchies Old Curiosity Non-Futurology Shop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: Largely due to the drive to greater profitability, normally made by having less and less contingency. Then when it all goes t*ts up "noone could have possibly foreseen this happening", and directors with huge bonuses rapidly making themselves scarce. Yeah I was going to rail against JIT as well, but thought It best to keep it short. But yes, JIT is not some fantastic brilliant thing. It is a wheeze dreamed up by some idiot wizz kid so he could claim 0.1% more profit and get his bonus. The rest of us are left with ordering a sofa, then waiting for the order going out to cut down a tree and take on another EE migrant from the Employment Agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 16 hours ago, Dave Beans said: If your happy to demolish whole sectors of the economy, such as JIT supply chains et al. then fine...The harder the out, the harder the back in. The growth in ROW trade won't replace the trade lost when we leave the SM.. Heard of the Brussels effect? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=nulr If we carry on Boris' trajectory, then we can remain outside the SM for so long, before there will be big calls for the UK to come back into the fold al la Switzerland - we're back in, effectively as a vassal state under ECJ jurisdiction. Don't say I didn't warn you! Thanks for that DB. Very intetresting and a must read for all, remainers and leavers. Allthought I don't think leavers will appreciate it much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, kzb said: Yeah I was going to rail against JIT as well, but thought It best to keep it short. But yes, JIT is not some fantastic brilliant thing. It is a wheeze dreamed up by some idiot wizz kid so he could claim 0.1% more profit and get his bonus. The rest of us are left with ordering a sofa, then waiting for the order going out to cut down a tree and take on another EE migrant from the Employment Agency. Not this again. No it wasn't. And it works well. Read this. https://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/research/dstools/jit-just-in-time-manufacturing/ I thought you of all people would approve of not wasting stock, but reacting to demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, kzb said: Yeah I was going to rail against JIT as well, but thought It best to keep it short. But yes, JIT is not some fantastic brilliant thing. It is a wheeze dreamed up by some idiot wizz kid so he could claim 0.1% more profit and get his bonus. The rest of us are left with ordering a sofa, then waiting for the order going out to cut down a tree and take on another EE migrant from the Employment Agency. Well you are in luck.... JIT will dissappear with Brexit (probably). Those business men, what do they know! They have spent all their lives investing in their business, learning, trade conferences, consultants, specialists, processes etc etc. Then along comes KZB who tells them how it is, and what is what.... they are crap and the processes they use are crap. It's good to know we will have you around after Brexit, we need someone to give the credit to when JIT is no longer. Stick around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Not this again. No it wasn't. And it works well. Read this. https://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/research/dstools/jit-just-in-time-manufacturing/ I thought you of all people would approve of not wasting stock, but reacting to demand. If it works well Brexit won't cause it a problem then ? It works well provided nothing goes wrong. The principle is fine. Don't tie up your capital in stock when it is expensive to store, has little resale value and the capital could be used more productively in say investing in better machinery to build the product more efficiency. But real life isn't like an accountants textbook. And if you push things to the limit you have no contingency when things go wrong. Politics, strikes, wars, natural disasters, they all screw it up. So there is a balance between too much stock and too little. And JIT is too little. Should politics becomes totally about serving the beast of JIT (you can't do that because it will wreck JIT) rather than serving the people that it is supposed to represent ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, pig said: Well a sense of humour can cover a multitude of sins However I don't accept your fatalistic hypothesis. The future is unmade We can use intelligence to plan for the future. Britain can plan to punch above its weight - provided it doesn't punch itself in the face with Brexit first. Are you not able to sit back and think 'well my thinking on this is a bit odd' ? Nor does it sit comfortably in Crouchies Old Curiosity Non-Futurology Shop... I don't think you quite understand. The decline is relative so it is not an absolute decline in any way but one that is relative to other countries. Those "other countries" have developed from a low base over the last thirty or forty years (China, India, Brazil, Russia ...) and were bound to become much more prominent due to size if nothing else. So, it is not a fatalistic hypothesis about the UK but a mere continuation of trends seen in ROW - but, yes, it does assume that those trends will continue. This situation is natural and does not affect the UK directly in the sense there will be a degradation in the UK itself. The UK has a great amount of "soft power" and there is no reason why this should not continue. although, as you say, it would help if Brexit fell short of a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 20 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: If it works well Brexit won't cause it a problem then ? It works well provided nothing goes wrong. The principle is fine. Don't tie up your capital in stock when it is expensive to store, has little resale value and the capital could be used more productively in say investing in better machinery to build the product more efficiency. But real life isn't like an accountants textbook. And if you push things to the limit you have no contingency when things go wrong. Politics, strikes, wars, natural disasters, they all screw it up. So there is a balance between too much stock and too little. And JIT is too little. Should politics becomes totally about serving the beast of JIT (you can't do that because it will wreck JIT) rather than serving the people that it is supposed to represent ? unfortunately most pro remain on here think like accountants. Matrix levels of brain control via spreadsheets going on here. can more than one Neo exist in the matrix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 26 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: If it works well Brexit won't cause it a problem then ? It works well provided nothing goes wrong. The principle is fine. Don't tie up your capital in stock when it is expensive to store, has little resale value and the capital could be used more productively in say investing in better machinery to build the product more efficiency. But real life isn't like an accountants textbook. And if you push things to the limit you have no contingency when things go wrong. Politics, strikes, wars, natural disasters, they all screw it up. So there is a balance between too much stock and too little. And JIT is too little. Should politics becomes totally about serving the beast of JIT (you can't do that because it will wreck JIT) rather than serving the people that it is supposed to represent ? It relies on frictionless trade. Without it, it's non-viable. The Tory party hasn't a clue. They have started a chat about Big ben rather than get down to the nitty-gritty of Brexit. Although this applies to cars - it applies to much manufacturing here too. "So it is little surprise that the Business Select Committee concluded in its report “The impact of Brexit on the automotive sector” that “non-tariff barriers, in the form of border delays and increased bureaucracy, will… affect UK competitiveness. We recommend that the government should, in its negotiations, place a high premium on securing frictionless trade for the automotive sector.” Moreover, it is hard to see how technology can provide solutions, given that individual truck-containers will not only contain supplies and components from numerous different suppliers, but also the composition of each container will differ from day to day and even hour to hour. As such, enforcing compliance with EU requirements will make cross-border JIT systems almost impossible to operate." https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/economics-and-finance/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production Not sure how you manage to conflate JIT with politics. But ... Politics should serve the people - a hope that's been on a bad course for a while here - now it's a distant ship sailing beyond the horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, slawek said: Nobody bought much in shops in the 70s and 80s interest base rate was high......something more going on. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/iadb/Repo.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, longgone said: unfortunately most pro remain on here think like accountants. Matrix levels of brain control via spreadsheets going on here. can more than one Neo exist in the matrix. It's not about accounting. Accountants did not think it up. It was an engineer. It's about risk. If you hold too much stock it might be obsoleted and it's space and money tied up. Money that could go into R&D, more jobs or new plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: It relies on frictionless trade. Without it, it's non-viable. The Tory party hasn't a clue. They have started a chat about Big ben rather than get down to the nitty-gritty of Brexit. Although this applies to cars - it applies to much manufacturing here too. "So it is little surprise that the Business Select Committee concluded in its report “The impact of Brexit on the automotive sector” that “non-tariff barriers, in the form of border delays and increased bureaucracy, will… affect UK competitiveness. We recommend that the government should, in its negotiations, place a high premium on securing frictionless trade for the automotive sector.” Moreover, it is hard to see how technology can provide solutions, given that individual truck-containers will not only contain supplies and components from numerous different suppliers, but also the composition of each container will differ from day to day and even hour to hour. As such, enforcing compliance with EU requirements will make cross-border JIT systems almost impossible to operate." https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/economics-and-finance/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production Not sure how you manage to conflate JIT with politics. But ... Politics should serve the people - a hope that's been on a bad course for a while here - now it's a distant ship sailing beyond the horizon. I'm not the one that is saying we can't do what we want politically (leave the EU) because it will wreck JIT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: I'm not the one that is saying we can't do what we want politically (leave the EU) because it will wreck JIT. Since when has politics judged the value of manufacturing processes? Or even see the value of an industrial policy? Perhaps if they had, like those who lead China, we would not have been in such decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, kzb said: I do find it strange that the Social Justice League could have this view of the poor exploited peoples. Any working class person who actively wanted to vote for Boris and the Tories deserve all they get. Cutting their own throats to get Brexit done. Most didn't vote Tory for any other policy other than leaving the EU so hell mend them. They'll reap what they sow, trusting those Tory to$$ers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Since when has politics judged the value of manufacturing processes? Or even see the value of an industrial policy? Perhaps if they had, like those who lead China, we would not have been in such decline. We're not in decline. And why is it a great idea to try to out compete the Chinese on manufacturing ? Where would be be now if our economy was dependent on making the same low value added products the Chinese do ? Fancy having the same wages as a Chinese worker ? Services and high value added manufacturing are the only places to be for a maturing economy. I don't want our politicians to be more like the Chinese. I don't want our politics to be run totally to serve big business and their practices. I don't think the rights of big business to implement manufacturing processes with zero contingency trumps the general populations right to self determination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: We're not in decline. And why is it a great idea to try to out compete the Chinese on manufacturing ? Where would be be now if our economy was dependent on making the same low value added products the Chinese do ? Fancy having the same wages as a Chinese worker ? Services and high value added manufacturing are the only places to be for a maturing economy. I don't want our politicians to be more like the Chinese. I don't want our politics to be run totally to serve big business and their practices. I don't think the rights of big business to implement manufacturing processes with zero contingency trumps the general populations right to self determination. The Chinese have caught up and exceeded us. They have their own fabs, their own space programme, they are a leader in mobile 5g telecoms and soon in super-computing. Is this the high value added manufacturing you're talking about? They will be the biggest economy in 10 years. It depends on the type of big business doesn't it? Airbus or the Japanese car makers vs. Amazon, the banks, the consultancies and pub chains like Wetherspoons. Which has the better jobs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 16 hours ago, Dave Beans said: If your happy to demolish whole sectors of the economy, such as JIT supply chains et al. then fine...The harder the out, the harder the back in. The growth in ROW trade won't replace the trade lost when we leave the SM.. Heard of the Brussels effect? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=nulr If we carry on Boris' trajectory, then we can remain outside the SM for so long, before there will be big calls for the UK to come back into the fold al la Switzerland - we're back in, effectively as a vassal state under ECJ jurisdiction. Don't say I didn't warn you! Yes - this. It does sound like we're going to spend a lot of time d1cking about until we tangibly understand the 'Brussels Effect'. If we are going to try to STEM/manufacture our way out of this presumably it makes sense for entrepreneurs to avoid supply chain issues by setting up manfucturing plants inside the EU ? Perhaps research/early concept development/headquarters/marketing can stay in the UK ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, pig said: Yes - this. It does sound like we're going to spend a lot of time d1cking about until we tangibly understand the 'Brussels Effect'. If we are going to try to STEM/manufacture our way out of this presumably it makes sense for entrepreneurs to avoid supply chain issues by setting up manfucturing plants inside the EU ? Perhaps research/early concept development/headquarters/marketing can stay in the UK ? Did you read my links about what happens with data after we leave Pig? Clue, nobody knows - nobody is talking about it. There has been a hosting exodus to the EU just in case. Just make sure that Farage has his party and Penfold can mime the bongs - much more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Did you read my links about what happens with data after we leave Pig? Clue, nobody knows - nobody is talking about it. There has been a hosting exodus to the EU just in case. Just make sure that Farage has his party and Penfold can mime the bongs - much more important. Missed that one - what kind of data ? Silence from the MSM is deafening on a number of rather unpleasant issues....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: I'm not the one that is saying we can't do what we want politically (leave the EU) because it will wreck JIT. I don’t have a problem with Brexit - I never have done. However, this talk of “deregulation” is pretty much a nonsense...the UK will still be signatories of global bodies post Brexit, be it the ILO, ICAO, Codex, WTO and so on and so on, so the chance of deregulation will be minimal. Is the US the way forward? On the whole, the US is a bit of a backwater, where standards can almost differ from state to state, although many of them follow California (much like the Brussels effect in the US). ROW trade won’t replace the trade lost via the SM. I can imagine Labour beating Boris with this over the next two to three years. If they get a sniff of power in five years time, then they’ll be jumping up and down, looking for a comprehensive FTA with the EU, no doubt saying almost yes to everything... If that happens, then we’ll be looking at an association agreement, much like Switzerland, with ECJ involvement, the works... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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