Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Confusion of VIs]

23 hours ago, kzb said:

But did you see what happened after I posted this satirical comment?  Both Pig and IMHAL suddenly started posting graphs and references  instead of playing to the gallery.  It really looked like they thought they've been rumbled and hurriedly changed their personality types to cover up !  They never actually argued with it either, the training kicked in and they ignored that comment till it went away.  They never ignore anything else.

If nobody cares, why is there all that  concern about the Russians on social media influencing voters?

I suppose they might have cared enough in the run up to the referendum but that is history now. It's hard to believe anyone is still paying for comments to be posted on HPC about a referendum that took place 5 years ago.

23 hours ago, kzb said:

It's not me posting all the offensive stuff.  95% of the sneering and ad hominem posts on here are by remainers.  I actually agree with this comment, and I think you should all say fair enough, let's get on with it even though I don't agree myself.

If you could all just stop trying to fight the referendum all over again, there wouldn't be an existing divide to capitalise on.

I am not trying to re-fight the referendum, it is over and done with. The Remainers lost as did all the Leavers who believed in Brexit as promised to win  the referendum.

As support for the hard Brexit that was actually delivered never achieved much over 20% in polling, we can also include Democracy among the losers.

The costs of Brexit are on course to surpass even the "project fear" forecasts.  The fallout from this has not even started yet, as so far increased borrowing has taken up the slack but this cannot continue for much longer.  

Brexit shrank UK services exports by £110bn

Quote

Brexit shrank UK services exports by more than £110bn over a four-year period, new research shows, highlighting the far-reaching trade implications of Britain’s decision to break away from the EU. Experts at Aston University in Birmingham found that UK services exports from 2016 to 2019 were cumulatively £113bn lower than they would have been had the UK not voted to quit the EU in June 2016.

  

[Confusion of VIs]

19 minutes ago, 14stFlyer said:

The breaking down of the red wall and focus of our main political parties on the North, the removal of EU freedom of movement, the apparent leaving of over 1 million EU migrants from England, the government’s levelling up agenda, the offering of jobs locally to our youngsters rather than preferentially to Eastern Europeans abroad. Maybe even a future shortage of young people to do the jobs our economy requires?

These changes in both emphasis and reality have occurred.

I suspect, like me, you think that much of this is lip service.  Boris and his Brexit cronies will actually, where they can, continue with policies of elitism, inequality and exclusion. And the people who voted for Brexit may never get the benefits that they were hoping for.  However, the vote to leave the EU has definitely got these issues out into open discussion. And that was definitely not the status quo. 

Can anyone explain what the "Levelling up agenda" actually means.  

So far it seems to have no more meaning than "Brexit means Brexit"

[steve99]

3 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Can anyone explain what the "Levelling up agenda" actually means.  

So far it seems to have no more meaning than "Brexit means Brexit"

Just another slogan for the dipsticks. Keep em on side for the next election. 

[pig]

On 31/05/2021 at 15:18, kzb said:

But did you see what happened after I posted this satirical comment?  Both Pig and IMHAL suddenly started posting graphs and references  instead of playing to the gallery.  It really looked like they thought they've been rumbled and hurriedly changed their personality types to cover up !  They never actually argued with it either, the training kicked in and they ignored that comment till it went away.  They never ignore anything else.

If nobody cares, why is there all that

concern about the Russians on social media influencing voters?

It's not me posting all the offensive stuff.  95% of the sneering and ad hominem posts on here are by remainers.  I actually agree with this comment, and I think you should all say fair enough, let's get on with it even though I don't agree myself.

 

If you could all just stop trying to fight the referendum all over again, there wouldn't be an existing divide to capitalise on.

Thats an incredibly childish post-rationalisation for losing an argument.

Especially there was no actual need to 'lose an argument' in the first place. Why don't you just simply debate in good faith ?

[steve99]

4 hours ago, rollover said:

And people followed  this foul critter.  I do hope all brexiteers put their entire savings into his current scam.

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, 14stFlyer said:

The breaking down of the red wall and focus of our main political parties on the North, the removal of EU freedom of movement, the apparent leaving of over 1 million EU migrants from England, the government’s levelling up agenda, the offering of jobs locally to our youngsters rather than preferentially to Eastern Europeans abroad. Maybe even a future shortage of young people to do the jobs our economy requires?

These changes in both emphasis and reality have occurred.

Short sighted and inward looking. We've been over and over this. I don't personally get impacted by ending freedom of movement but I still think it was a short sighted choice to remove these freedoms for millions of Brits because people are scared of Pawel the Eastern European "taking our jobs". It's the same argument that has always been used and will always be used to justify blaming immigrants (yes, yes, we know, blaming "immigration").

The country is presumably trying to sign up to free trade deals with nations where most jobs can be done cheaper, and they will be. Therefore there is going to be no net positive job creation in the UK in the long term because of brexit. 

By all accounts we've already more than lot the total amount of contributions over 40 years to the EU because of brexit and this will continue to unfold.

Anyway, all that aside, people voted for more British Tory Party and less foreigners. More of the status quo throughout our history and less of the exciting development of unifying more countries and opening up more of the world to all, not just the elite.

[Casual-observer]

The problem is though it was the working class who felt the brunt end of the freedom of movement and the working class never had the advantage of going to Europe and working with a currency exchange in their favour. It was a lopsided deal against them. 

High end middle class types never had heaps of solicitors or engineers piling in from the EU to compete with, it was simply an imbalance nobody addressed, least of all politicians who never appreciated what it was like to suddenly have the value of their own labour devalued overnight. 

You cannot just blindly do this and not expect chickens come home to roost. 

Also on the Irish issue, the IRA embraced the the EU out of sheer convenience as they assumed it would bring about reunification. It's no closer now than it was when Ireland first joined. 

I also believe it's maximum hypocrisy for anyone to bring up Ireland and Brexit. 

The Irish initially voted against the Treaty of Nice and the Lisbon Treaty with zero cares given on wider repercussions, borders or the good Friday agreement. It's amusing how the Irish can vote for their own national integrity but for some reason when the British even enquire about doing the same we suddenly turn into a nation of thicko racists. 

[kzb]

48 minutes ago, pig said:

Thats an incredibly childish post-rationalisation for losing an argument.

I never lost the argument.  To say that means it is you who is "post-rationalising".

50 minutes ago, pig said:

Especially there was no actual need to 'lose an argument' in the first place. Why don't you just simply debate in good faith ?

You're the very last person on this thread who is entitled to lecture others on "debating in good faith".   Every post from you can be summed up as, "look at me and my clever comments, aren't I funny mocking this thick Brexiter". 

[dugsbody]

38 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

The problem is though it was the working class who felt the brunt end of the freedom of movement and the working class never had the advantage of going to Europe and working with a currency exchange in their favour. It was a lopsided deal against them. 

High end middle class types never had heaps of solicitors or engineers piling in from the EU to compete with, it was simply an imbalance nobody addressed, least of all politicians who never appreciated what it was like to suddenly have the value of their own labour devalued overnight. 

You cannot just blindly do this and not expect chickens come home to roost.

You're presenting an argument on top of a fact that isn't a fact.

FOM has had close to zero negative impact on wages. 

[yelims]

1 hour ago, Casual-observer said:

The problem is though it was the working class who felt the brunt end of the freedom of movement and the working class never had the advantage of going to Europe and working with a currency exchange in their favour. It was a lopsided deal against them. 

High end middle class types never had heaps of solicitors or engineers piling in from the EU to compete with, it was simply an imbalance nobody addressed, least of all politicians who never appreciated what it was like to suddenly have the value of their own labour devalued overnight. 

You cannot just blindly do this and not expect chickens come home to roost. 

Also on the Irish issue, the IRA embraced the the EU out of sheer convenience as they assumed it would bring about reunification. It's no closer now than it was when Ireland first joined. 

I also believe it's maximum hypocrisy for anyone to bring up Ireland and Brexit. 

The Irish initially voted against the Treaty of Nice and the Lisbon Treaty with zero cares given on wider repercussions, borders or the good Friday agreement. It's amusing how the Irish can vote for their own national integrity but for some reason when the British even enquire about doing the same we suddenly turn into a nation of thicko racists. 

We voted to ensure there are more protections for our neutrality (hilariously enough due to similar arguments Brexiteers made) which we got and subsequently Lisbon passed.

It in no way was similar to Brexit vote (never mind that there was not a second Brexit referendum…)

One was a vote to ensure more conditions are added to the European project to proceed while Brexit was a vote to tear everything up and sail away into irrelevance.

 

it’s no surprise that 5 years later there are still Brexiteers who don’t know what they voted for not know anything about the Eu project 

Edited June 1, 2021 by yelims

[DarkHorseWaits-NoMore]

2 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

... And the people who voted for Brexit may never get the benefits that they were hoping for. ...

may never? lol Under statement for sure.

2 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

 ... However, the vote to leave the EU has definitely got these issues out into open discussion. And that was definitely not the status quo. 

Na, the media don't do detail anymore and the electorate that swing FPTPost are not sufficiently politically literate enough to handle more than 3 word populist slogans. The optimism is welcome, though the reality on the ground and in their heads, is as yet unchanged.

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, Casual-observer said:

Also on the Irish issue, the IRA embraced the the EU out of sheer convenience as they assumed it would bring about reunification. It's no closer now than it was when Ireland first joined.

The IRA, and Irish nationalism generally, has never been able to cope with the fact that not everyone in Ireland shares their view of the world.

[skinnylattej]

7 hours ago, kzb said:

It's certainly an interesting point, if voters can be influenced by the nature of the polling station and what is on display there.

For example, if Spoons had been polling stations for the Brexit referendum, the Leave vote would've been even larger.

I wonder what would happen if the polling stations were located in Primark, or McDonalds?

Or some form of digital voting system run through YouTube or Instagram?

Voting using your smart 'phone?

Wonder how the Electoral Commission would handle boundary changes in a digital voting arena?

A veritable Pandora's box (bottle) indeed.

[Casual-observer]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

You're presenting an argument on top of a fact that isn't a fact.

FOM has had close to zero negative impact on wages. 

and yet the voting patterns from working class areas which tended to vote leave seems to suggest the opposite. 

It's pure bogus conjecture Russian bots on facebook at all influenced people more over their own lived experience. 

56 minutes ago, yelims said:

It in no way was similar to Brexit vote (never mind that there was not a second Brexit referendum…)

One was a vote to ensure more conditions are added to the European project to proceed while Brexit was a vote to tear everything up and sail away into irrelevance.

 

Except that's false, there was never any promise of a second referendum or there being any wiggle room for negotiation on it. 

The Irish to steal a term, jumped off a cliff edge as a bargaining chip to wrestle power for themselves. 

Where the British/EU ruling elite went wrong was they utterly mishandled the initial negotiations Cameron won, which were purely meaningless. 

Again I just find it incredibly hypocritical and snobbery when others can do it throughout the EU but the British can't. It's not our destiny to be poodles of the EU 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, yelims said:

We voted to ensure there are more protections for our neutrality (hilariously enough due to similar arguments Brexiteers made) which we got and subsequently Lisbon passed.

It in no way was similar to Brexit vote (never mind that there was not a second Brexit referendum…)

One was a vote to ensure more conditions are added to the European project to proceed while Brexit was a vote to tear everything up and sail away into irrelevance.

 

it’s no surprise that 5 years later there are still Brexiteers who don’t know what they voted for not know anything about the Eu project 

The idea that being outside the EU makes you irrelevant will be news to most of the world.

[kzb]

4 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

  Brexit shrank UK services exports by £110bn

 Out of the Aston University report:

International comparison of the UK services export

 

What do you see here? 

 

[dugsbody]

46 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

and yet the voting patterns from working class areas which tended to vote leave seems to suggest the opposite. 

The mob is never wrong? The stats are wrong?

52 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

It's pure bogus conjecture Russian bots on facebook at all influenced people more over their own lived experience. 

Reductio ad absurdum. You can do better. No actually, you probably can't. As usual, another pseudo-intellectual brexit supporter appears, first few posts try to appear rational, but like a salivating dog, you can't help but break down into arguing from a dishonest position. It didn't even take you 10 posts to reach this time. Maybe next time you come back.

 

Quote

https://www.thedrum.com/news/2017/06/13/we-dumped-our-entire-budget-the-last-10-days-inside-the-behavioural-science-strategy

Using mass polling and focus groups to figure out the right messages for specific demographics, the team plugged the data they accumulated on the ground and online straight back into social media.

“They ran messages experimentally on Facebook to figure out what things work and don’t work," Cummings said.

"We basically dumped our entire budget in the last 10 days, and really in the last three or four days. We aimed it at roughly 7 million people, who saw something like one and a half billion digital ads over a relatively short period of time."

 

[dugsbody]

59 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

Again I just find it incredibly hypocritical and snobbery when others can do it throughout the EU but the British can't. It's not our destiny to be poodles of the EU 

That's because slagging off and lying about Europe (and not just limited to the EU) is a very British thing and it is obvious to all the other nations in the EU. They perceive Brits as thinking themselves above everyone else and react exactly as you'd expect. 

Brexit is not a problem. It is the liars that are the problem.

[Casual-observer]

33 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

The mob is never wrong? The stats are wrong?

Well someone is.. It's bizarre to argue there was no wage suppression yet coincidently the demographic whom tended to vote leave was the lower wage end of the market. 

It wasn't blowhard middle class civil servants who got their jobs through private school networks or the highly unionised public sector with a wage packet protected by the tax base of those they claim to care for. 

36 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Reductio ad absurdum. You can do better. No actually, you probably can't. As usual, another pseudo-intellectual brexit supporter appears, first few posts try to appear rational, but like a salivating dog, you can't help but break down into arguing from a dishonest position. It didn't even take you 10 posts to reach this time. Maybe next time you come back.

 

I think you need to relax to be honest, a rational individual wouldn't casually throw around random insults.

I'll be sure to let you know when I 'come back' 

[dugsbody]

4 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

Well someone is.. It's bizarre to argue there was no wage suppression yet coincidently the demographic whom tended to vote leave was the lower wage end of the market. 

Those that tended to vote leave were older than 45 and very heavily skewed over 65. Younger workers tended to vote remain.

I can't argue with feelings, they're important, but they can be wrong. And the data says they're wrong. 

6 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

think you need to relax to be honest, a rational individual wouldn't casually throw around random insults.

To be fair, it's not random insults. They're quite targeted. Five years since the vote and you still don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Casual-observer]

2 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Those that tended to vote leave were older than 45 and very heavily skewed over 65. Younger workers tended to vote remain.

 

Yes yes, I just find that stat lazy as it seems to infer only an army of Colonel Blimps voted leave. I hail from Middlesbrough and I can fully sympathise why the are voted over 60% to leave. Voting leave probably won't dramatically change that areas circumstances but voting remain certainly wouldn't have either. 

6 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

To be fair, it's not random insults. They're quite targeted. Five years since the vote and you still don't know what you're talking about.

 

Which part do you not understand, the EU wasn't mine to sell.

The general principle was it was down to the EU project or remainers to sell that vision...it failed and remainers are still shooting off at other people for their own failures. The levels of delusion for refusing to face up to it is comical 

 

 

 

[dryrot]

 I cant  remember which of the 12 or so EU Presidents Mr Michel is, but anyway this is a classic! 

Wow! So the EU-austerity-savagery is "the best years in [Greece's] history" Thank heavens we are out of the EU. This sort of speech would wind me up when we were part of it (and paying for the Eurocrats salaries).

[dugsbody]

56 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

Which part do you not understand, the EU wasn't mine to sell.

I was talking about your logical fallacy about "Russian" agents, whereas we didn't need to rely on foreign hackers. The Leave Campaign had it as their core strategy. Five years later and you still weren't even aware.

[dugsbody]

12 minutes ago, dryrot said:

Wow! So the EU-austerity-savagery is "the best years in [Greece's] history" Thank heavens we are out of the EU. This sort of speech would wind me up when we were part of it (and paying for the Eurocrats salaries).

Didn't you vote for austerity in the UK? 

[Casual-observer]

5 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I was talking about your logical fallacy about "Russian" agents, whereas we didn't need to rely on foreign hackers. The Leave Campaign had it as their core strategy. Five years later and you still weren't even aware.

Oh I was aware of these bogus claims which were simply overblown claims ultimately. 

We didn't vote leave because of hackers, it's been nothing but a comfort blanket for people who can't handle being on the losing side of a vote