Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Staffsknot]

26 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Yawn. It's quite obvious you have not read 1984 if you think that the current state of the UK political and economic system bares any resemblence to Airstrip One as in the novel.

Typical Remoaner hyperbole.

Next you'll be telling us this is exactly how Nazi Germany/fascist Italy started.

But you have successfully deflected away from the sunlit uplands that would be harder to argue has not and likely will not materialise.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Staffsknot

[rollover]

School trips to UK from EU could halve as Brexit hits cultural exchanges

 

Loss of young Europeans on pupil visits will cause major reputational damage to UK, warn tour organisers.

French and German educational trip organisers bringing as many as 750,000 school pupils to the UK every year have warned that tougher post-Brexit entry requirements are likely to cut the number of young Europeans visiting Britain by half.

“We’ve already seen a big fall-off in interest,” said Edward Hisbergues, the sales manager of a leading French operator, PG Trips. “My business was 90% UK, 10% Ireland; now it’s all about Ireland. Schools are inquiring about visits to the Netherlands or Malta.”

The organisers said many thousands of UK host families, language schools, hotels and other businesses around the country, and especially in cities such as Canterbury that specialise in the educational market, risked suffering a significant economic impact.

Guardian

 

[yelims]

40 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Yawn. It's quite obvious you have not read 1984 if you think that the current state of the UK political and economic system bares any resemblence to Airstrip One as in the novel.

Typical Remoaner hyperbole.

Next you'll be telling us this is exactly how Nazi Germany/fascist Italy started.

You don’t see parallels with society always at war with eastasia or Eurasia?

you don’t see how ignorance has become cool?

you don’t see people passively absorbing propaganda through their TVs and phones and in turn being watched?

you don’t see constant hate being preached against those evil Europeans?

You don’t see a political system who are actively chipping away at rights?

 

and yes UK is on a path to fascism, Italy and Germany didn’t just wake up overnight and went full nazi it took decades of propaganda and gaslighting and populism and nationalism and slow boiling away of rights and freedoms 

[Sheer Heart Attack]

20 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

But you have successfully deflected away from the sunlit uplands that would be harder to argue has not and likely will not materialise.

I was not deflecting anything.

My point was about the OP's completely wrong comparison of the political and economic systems of the UK as it is to the politicial and economic systems of Airstrip One.

I have a lot of sympathy with Remoaner arguments actually - it's just the use of hyperbole and nonsense comparisons which undermines your cause with those you would wish to convert.

[Sheer Heart Attack]

Just now, yelims said:

You don’t see parallels with society always at war with eastasia or Eurasia?

you don’t see how ignorance has become cool?

you don’t see people passively absorbing propaganda through their TVs and phones and in turn being watched?

you don’t see constant hate being preached against those evil Europeans?

You don’t see a political system who are actively chipping away at rights?

 

and yes UK is on a path to fascism, Italy and Germany didn’t just wake up overnight and went full nazi it took decades of propaganda and gaslighting and populism and nationalism and slow boiling away of rights and freedoms 

Another common fallacy of Remainers is that we're on the eve of a national socialist/fascist country.

Guess what - we're not and we never have been.

As for "ignorance becoming cool", I would say that's more "Brave New World" than 1984.

This "dystopian future" you're so hysterically wrong about is actually far closer in France and in a handful of other EU countries - not the UK.

And if there is this constant "hate...preached against those evil Europeans", why do 5.2 million of them want to stay here?

And all political parties chip away at rights - New Labour were famous for it.

The joys of answering online cretins quoting books they've never read never cease.

[yelims]

22 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Another common fallacy of Remainers is that we're on the eve of a national socialist/fascist country.

Guess what - we're not and we never have been.

As for "ignorance becoming cool", I would say that's more "Brave New World" than 1984.

This "dystopian future" you're so hysterically wrong about is actually far closer in France and in a handful of other EU countries - not the UK.

And if there is this constant "hate...preached against those evil Europeans", why do 5.2 million of them want to stay here?

And all political parties chip away at rights - New Labour were famous for it.

The joys of answering online cretins quoting books they've never read never cease.

Seems I touched a nerve as deep down a little voice in your head is going “oh shit”

congrats at least you haven’t fully embraced ignorance like the Brexiteers 

[rollover]

24 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Another common fallacy of Remainers is that we're on the eve of a national socialist/fascist country.

Guess what - we're not and we never have been.

As for "ignorance becoming cool", I would say that's more "Brave New World" than 1984.

This "dystopian future" you're so hysterically wrong about is actually far closer in France and in a handful of other EU countries - not the UK.

And if there is this constant "hate...preached against those evil Europeans", why do 5.2 million of them want to stay here?

And all political parties chip away at rights - New Labour were famous for it.

The joys of answering online cretins quoting books they've never read never cease.

What a straw-man fallacies are you creating?

Are you just being silly, init?

[dugsbody]

22 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

I think the distorting effect of the UK being the only major english speaking EU state was difficult to understate.

What distorting effect?

[dugsbody]

20 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

I would have thought your indepence of will anarchist leanings would be at serious odds with such conclusions.

Locke is not an anarchist.

He is the usual internet anarchist warrior whose practical views don't at all align with the theory. It's just a nice front to have so you can take all sorts of inane stances and fall back to "it is evil to inflict harm".

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

What distorting effect?

The pull effect for migration. All things being equal, people would choose to come to the UK to perfect their English.

Edited June 4, 2021 by thecrashingisles

[dugsbody]

Just now, thecrashingisles said:

The pull effect for migration. All things being equal, people would choose to come to the UK to perfect their England.

I don't think the UK has received more EU immigrants than other major EU nations though?

[Staffsknot]

37 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

sympathy with Remoaner

Those sound like they are at odds, sympathetic to but lampooning.

39 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

it's just the use of hyperbole and nonsense comparisons which undermines your cause

But the bus thing was fine as is all the sunlit uplands and oven ready deal / Brilliant deal that is currently being disowned by the negotiators.

You have to admit to there being a hint of 1984 in the way history is being re-written and BS is repeated without a shadow of contrition by Johnson et al.

No I do not believe we are a fascist state nor full 1984 - but sighting all remainers believe that is in vogue.

[dugsbody]

5 hours ago, rollover said:

And so, some five years into the Brexit journey, we may finally be at the point of knowing what, precisely Brexit means.

How many times do I have to explain this.

Brexit means ending freedom of movement. That's all brexiters ever really cared about. It is the one thing that never moves under your feet when you're trying to debate with a brexiter. All the other stuff comes and goes as it suits them because it was always just window dressing. That's why fisherman are now thrown under a bus, never to be mentioned by brexiters again. Same for farmers. Same for food standards. Etc, etc.

How does the Independent not get this yet?

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Yawn. It's quite obvious you have not read 1984 if you think that the current state of the UK political and economic system bares any resemblence to Airstrip One as in the novel.

Typical Remoaner hyperbole.

Next you'll be telling us this is exactly how Nazi Germany/fascist Italy started.

In my time alive I have never seen this level of willingness to tolerate or actively enjoy state sponsored lies. It is so pervasive right now that it doesn't even stand out anymore. Brexit is built from the ground up in lies and so naturally this has now infected our politics from top to bottom and we're seeing the results. You cannot build something good on a foundation of bad (lies). There will be a price to pay.

So yes, for me, today feels closer to the symbolism of 1984 than at any other time I've know.

[yelims]

1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

The pull effect for migration. All things being equal, people would choose to come to the UK to perfect their England.

Hilarious typo aside 

could you imagine the English from poor sods who might have went to Liverpool or Newcastle or Scotland to learn English 🤣

[Sheer Heart Attack]

1 hour ago, yelims said:

Seems I touched a nerve as deep down a little voice in your head is going “oh shit”

congrats at least you haven’t fully embraced ignorance like the Brexiteers 

Of course you touched a nerve, mate.

I am worried about Brexit, tbh - I worry about all big decisions that either I take or which are taken on my behalf.

However, the comparison with 1984 was idiotic if you have actually read the book and it shines a light on your ignorance if you haven't.

1 hour ago, rollover said:

What a straw-man fallacies are you creating?

Are you just being silly, init?

I was not the one who brought up straw-man propositions about the current UK being similar to Airstrip One in 1984.

I know you didn't do this so I am puzzled why you're accusing me of doing so.

48 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Those sound like they are at odds, sympathetic to but lampooning.

But the bus thing was fine as is all the sunlit uplands and oven ready deal / Brilliant deal that is currently being disowned by the negotiators.

You have to admit to there being a hint of 1984 in the way history is being re-written and BS is repeated without a shadow of contrition by Johnson et al.

No I do not believe we are a fascist state nor full 1984 - but sighting all remainers believe that is in vogue.

We are not in a fascist state and most people who use the word fascist really have little to no understanding of what fascism is.

Johnson is a BS artiste and has been for years - I fully agree with you. I love Britain but, as the unlikeable Dom Cummings put it, having a choice between Johnson and Corbyn last election was a low for the country politically.

I knew Brexit would be a risk as did most Brexiteers.

However, would I rather live in a democracy (even one which produces the turgid choices of 2019 like our last GE) or live under a technocratic bureaucracy who make mistake after mistake whose leaders I can't remove? The former but only just.

Would I rather the country be slightly poorer as a result of being an "independent" medium-sized power in the world but free to make its own decisions or slightly richer by staying in the EU but be subject to its rules all the time? The former but only just.

Leaving the EU or staying in the EU was as awful as binary choice as Johnson or Corbyn.

18 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

In my time alive I have never seen this level of willingness to tolerate or actively enjoy state sponsored lies. It is so pervasive right now that it doesn't even stand out anymore. Brexit is built from the ground up in lies and so naturally this has now infected our politics from top to bottom and we're seeing the results. You cannot build something good on a foundation of bad (lies). There will be a price to pay.

So yes, for me, today feels closer to the symbolism of 1984 than at any other time I've know.

It is all rather depressing, I agree with you but that does not make it 1984.

In 1984, lies were systematically erased from the record and replaced with the new version of the truth. There was one source of information - the Party.

In 2021, the world could not be more different. There is no MiniTruth, there is no 2-minute hate or 5 year plans, and all of us are near permanently connected to the greatest information resource of all time - the Internet. We can check what people have said before without having to visit a library, we can submit FOI requests, and so on.

How people who have read the book can possibly compare the two and claim they understood the book's plot and central messages is baffling to me.

The Leave campaign hardly covered themselves in glory and neither did the Remoaners who lied and exaggerated just as blatantly. World War 3, anyone? Emergency budget, anyone? Destruction of Western civilisation, anyone? "Back of the queue", anyone? 3 million job losses, anyone? Car companies leaving in their droves, anyone?

Would it be OK if those lies had prevailed rather than the Brexit lies? Would we be in any better position than we are now as a democracy? I'm personally not so sure about that.

[yelims]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

I don't think the UK has received more EU immigrants than other major EU nations though?

It hasn’t, Ireland next door has a higher percentage of population born outside. Polish is 2nd language displacing Irish. 
You see no hate towards the Poles as they mostly integrated into the culture and why would we not want more white, catholic, hard working taxpayers?

[dugsbody]

2 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

How people who have read the book can possibly compare the two and claim they understood the book's plot and central messages is baffling to me.

As I said (or meant to say), it's the symbolism rather than a literal comparison. The term 1984 has come to be more symbolic than literal.

[thecrashingisles]

22 minutes ago, yelims said:

Hilarious typo aside 

could you imagine the English from poor sods who might have went to Liverpool or Newcastle or Scotland to learn English 🤣

How snobbish of you! No doubt you have a D4 accent.

[coypondboy]

2 hours ago, rollover said:

School trips to UK from EU could halve as Brexit hits cultural exchanges

 

Loss of young Europeans on pupil visits will cause major reputational damage to UK, warn tour organisers.

French and German educational trip organisers bringing as many as 750,000 school pupils to the UK every year have warned that tougher post-Brexit entry requirements are likely to cut the number of young Europeans visiting Britain by half.

“We’ve already seen a big fall-off in interest,” said Edward Hisbergues, the sales manager of a leading French operator, PG Trips. “My business was 90% UK, 10% Ireland; now it’s all about Ireland. Schools are inquiring about visits to the Netherlands or Malta.”

The organisers said many thousands of UK host families, language schools, hotels and other businesses around the country, and especially in cities such as Canterbury that specialise in the educational market, risked suffering a significant economic impact.

Guardian

 

Certainly affecting the bcp area which normally has hundreds of language students from europe and far east this time of year and many locals rely on income from renting rooms to them as well as many language schools employing people.

[coypondboy]

32 minutes ago, yelims said:

It hasn’t, Ireland next door has a higher percentage of population born outside. Polish is 2nd language displacing Irish. 
You see no hate towards the Poles as they mostly integrated into the culture and why would we not want more white, catholic, hard working taxpayers?

My wife's father worked in dublin as a builder but from northern ireland and commuted staying down during the week for years.  He retired after the property crash in 2007 and was very bitter about the hordes of immigrants getting free housing etc having worked all his life and got no help from the state and died at the age of 70 due to overwork in a hard industry.

[pig]

1 hour ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Of course you touched a nerve, mate.

I am worried about Brexit, tbh - I worry about all big decisions that either I take or which are taken on my behalf.

However, the comparison with 1984 was idiotic if you have actually read the book and it shines a light on your ignorance if you haven't.

I was not the one who brought up straw-man propositions about the current UK being similar to Airstrip One in 1984.

I know you didn't do this so I am puzzled why you're accusing me of doing so.

We are not in a fascist state and most people who use the word fascist really have little to no understanding of what fascism is.

Johnson is a BS artiste and has been for years - I fully agree with you. I love Britain but, as the unlikeable Dom Cummings put it, having a choice between Johnson and Corbyn last election was a low for the country politically.

I knew Brexit would be a risk as did most Brexiteers.

However, would I rather live in a democracy (even one which produces the turgid choices of 2019 like our last GE) or live under a technocratic bureaucracy who make mistake after mistake whose leaders I can't remove? The former but only just.

Would I rather the country be slightly poorer as a result of being an "independent" medium-sized power in the world but free to make its own decisions or slightly richer by staying in the EU but be subject to its rules all the time? The former but only just.

Leaving the EU or staying in the EU was as awful as binary choice as Johnson or Corbyn.

It is all rather depressing, I agree with you but that does not make it 1984.

In 1984, lies were systematically erased from the record and replaced with the new version of the truth. There was one source of information - the Party.

In 2021, the world could not be more different. There is no MiniTruth, there is no 2-minute hate or 5 year plans, and all of us are near permanently connected to the greatest information resource of all time - the Internet. We can check what people have said before without having to visit a library, we can submit FOI requests, and so on.

How people who have read the book can possibly compare the two and claim they understood the book's plot and central messages is baffling to me.

The Leave campaign hardly covered themselves in glory and neither did the Remoaners who lied and exaggerated just as blatantly. World War 3, anyone? Emergency budget, anyone? Destruction of Western civilisation, anyone? "Back of the queue", anyone? 3 million job losses, anyone? Car companies leaving in their droves, anyone?

Would it be OK if those lies had prevailed rather than the Brexit lies? Would we be in any better position than we are now as a democracy? I'm personally not so sure about that.

It’s pretty easy really - you don’t simply wait until black shirts are goose-stepping  around Westminster with little moustaches or the Dear Leaders  doubleplusgoodspeak Gets Reality Dumped.

And anyway you don’t look for history (or futurology!) repeating itself, you look for where it rhymes ... 

[Sheer Heart Attack]

5 minutes ago, pig said:

It’s pretty easy really - you don’t simply wait until black shirts are goose-stepping  around Westminster with little moustaches or the Dear Leaders  doubleplusgoodspeak Gets Reality Dumped.

And anyway you don’t look for history (or futurology!) repeating itself, you look for where it rhymes ... 

I think, of all the 1984-related contributions on this thread so far, this is possibly the silliest and demonstrates the hystrionics, hyperbole and lack of comparitive abilities of Remoaners, the woke, etc.

EVERYTHING'S ALWAYS SUCH A CRISIS AND IT'S ALWAYS ONE MINUTE TILL MIDNIGHT! WE'RE DOOMED, I TELLS YA!

Thanks for the giggle, Parsons!

I'm off to re-read "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", proles 🙂

(Edited because I missed the "s" off "demonstrates")

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sheer Heart Attack

[Staffsknot]

15 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

demonstrates the hystrionics, hyperbole and lack of comparitive abilities of Remoaners, the woke, etc

This demonstrates the Daily Mail headline writers dictionary of terms to level at folk you disagree with.

[yelims]

1 hour ago, coypondboy said:

My wife's father worked in dublin as a builder but from northern ireland and commuted staying down during the week for years.  He retired after the property crash in 2007 and was very bitter about the hordes of immigrants getting free housing etc having worked all his life and got no help from the state and died at the age of 70 due to overwork in a hard industry.

Hold on, he is bitter that he did not get free housing (did he apply for social housing?) in a different country to which he commuted as per your post to work instead of moving here permanently?

if he paid he’s taxes here (which I doubt as from your post it sounds he was trying to game both uk and Irish systems) then he would have been entitled to a pension and welfare several times more generous than Uk

Seeing how social housing queues are several decades long here I call ******** on rest your post.

 

there is lack of housing now but one can’t point at immigration as cause as until a couple years ago rent prices were below what they were 2 decades earlier and there was zero construction for about a decade. Hundreds of thousands of Eastern European’s came, worked, paid a ton in taxes and a good chunk left once economies improved, those that remained are so integrated into society beside strange surnames most of time be hard to tell them apart from locals