Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[slawek]

4 hours ago, crouch said:

I think you're wrong.

The office of PM in the constitution is very vague and is: " the person most likely to command the confidence of the House of Commons". It's an office which only exists by convention and custom.

In fact it would be possible if we had a national emergency to appoint someone who was not an MP; had no political experience but who could command authority in the country in the exceptional circumstances that existed. Therefore to talk about whether this election is better than that election is rather beside the point; there are virtually no "rules" just expediency - which in fact is not a particularly bad system.

In fact, in terms of strict institutional structures the EU is perhaps more democratic because the process is better defined, at least to a greater extent than here. And when I say "better defined" I don't mean that the EU process is completely defined because the latest elections abandoned the spitzenkandidat system in favour of something murkier.

I used the comparison how the EU Commission President and the UK PM  has been/is being selected to counter a common Leavers' claim that the EU is undemocratic. This assertion is simply bonkers and I don't understand how this view can be still alive on this forum.   

I agree that it is rather difficult to say which of the systems is more democratic. To authoritatively state this we would need a precise definition what a democracy is and a way to judge which differences between both democracies are more important and which are less significant. It is rather a messy and lengthy discussion with a slim chances we would agree on the end result.

As for the specific case of the UK PM and EU Commission President election I would say both are more less similar as long as a new PM is confirmed by the parliament in a no confidence vote. What makes the UK a little democratically disadvantaged is a fact that a lack of agreement on a new PM triggers a new election automatically. This makes sometimes the whole process a vote whether MPs want to keep or not their seats a little longer, which could lead to a confirmation of a new PM who doesn't have a real support of a majority in the parliament.

I share your view that the unwritten and based on precedents UK "constitution" is not a great idea. I would much prefer something more tangible.      

One of the problems of the EU system is a dual democratic mandate of its structures. From one side there is a Council of democratically elected PMs of the member countries, from other the EU parliament elected in a separate process. There is a power struggle between those two institutions, which manifested itself in the way the new EU Commission President was selected.   If you follow closer the process of selecting for different positions in the EU structures we will notice a lot of shady deals between countries, which fail in the EU parliament as it asserts its authority reflecting a different power balance.    

[yodigo]

6 hours ago, zugzwang said:

UK tourists facing potential 'money shock' as the pound dies on its ****.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49015116

 

Cherry picking. 2013 £ down at 1.08 Euros, predicted to go below 1 Euro.

[yodigo]

7 hours ago, slawek said:

I was referring to your argument, which I don't share, that somehow being elected as a MP is required for a person to be democratically elected. Now you question this, pointing out that Bundestag is not the Commission. The UK parliament is also a different body from the UK government, so the UK PM is not democratically elected, assuming your definition of democracy. You are just arguing with yourself here. 

Once again my point is: the EU Commission President has been  elected by the EU parliament, representatives of all people living in the EU. In the UK PM is being elected by a small group of Tory members. This clearly shows that the EU is more democratic than the UK. 

PS: I've got an impression you are trolling. The quality of your arguments is a far cry from your previous posts.   

Amazing how they continue to pretend democracy exists in the EU. So when are you going to stand for EU Commission President? Oh, you can't. Nor can you vote for any of the candidates.

[yodigo]

On 16/07/2019 at 14:40, Bruce Banner said:

Personally I don't give a stuff about democracy, it's only a word and as such can be interpreted in different ways.

What I care about is that the people get to decide what they want and that, in my opinion, does not include insisting that even if 99% of those who voted to leave have now changed their minds, they must be dragged screaming and kicking out of the EU in the name of democracy. So I agree "******** to democracy".

 

99% - is that a real figure or just made up in your head?

[Bruce Banner]

18 minutes ago, yodigo said:

99% - is that a real figure or just made up in your head?

https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/210294-brexit-what-happens-next-thread-multiple-merged-threads/&do=findComment&comment=1103494283

 

[Dorkins]

32 minutes ago, yodigo said:

Amazing how they continue to pretend democracy exists in the EU. So when are you going to stand for EU Commission President? Oh, you can't. Nor can you vote for any of the candidates.

That's because the power in the EU sits with the national governments. The national governments are elected by their national populations, then the national governments meet at the EU to work with each other including by appointing the Commission whose job is to carry out the wishes of the national governments.

If these EU positions were directly elected by the public then there would be a power struggle between the national governments and the directly elected EU politicians over who had the stronger democratic mandate etc. The fact that the EU politicians are appointed by national governments and not directly elected keeps the national governments in the driving seat.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Dorkins

[zugzwang]

23 minutes ago, yodigo said:

Cherry picking. 2013 £ down at 1.08 Euros, predicted to go below 1 Euro.

 

In fact, the near-term low vs the euro was 1.04 at the end of 2008.

 

 

An all-time low against the USD beckons.

 

 

[slawek]

1 hour ago, yodigo said:

Amazing how they continue to pretend democracy exists in the EU. So when are you going to stand for EU Commission President? Oh, you can't. Nor can you vote for any of the candidates.

I can't stand for the UK PM and vote for any candidate either. Does this make the UK undemocratic? 

[zugzwang]

16 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Now she wants a Brussels HQ for her EU defence force, which can coordinate Civil and military forces in a single command centre, an annual WI wide defence review, and a dedicated EU defence budget.

 

 

And the Brexit Party's position on the defence of Europe? Is it written down somewhere?

Forgive me if I've asked before (more than once, in fact) but no-one seems to have the first idea.

[rollover]

9 hours ago, yodigo said:

Cherry picking. 2013 £ down at 1.08 Euros, predicted to go below 1 Euro.

 Careful what you wish for!

This time it could be £0.9 to 1 euro.

 

Quote

 

No-deal Brexit could sink pound to parity against US dollar

Pound sinks further after hitting a two-year low yesterday. Britain is bracing for an economic shock as no-deal Brexit draws closer.

The pound may fall to parity with the dollar on a no-deal Brexit according to Morgan Stanley.

Telegraph

 

 

[rollover]

9 hours ago, yodigo said:

Cherry picking. 2013 £ down at 1.08 Euros, predicted to go below 1 Euro.

Are you sure about that?

What day was it in 2013?

[winkie]

The UK up for sale, bargain price??

[rollover]

4 minutes ago, winkie said:

The UK up for sale, bargain price??

After the no deal Brexit, the UK fire sale would be a heck of a good deal.

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

Britain will fall into recession if there is a No-Deal Brexit later this year

A no-deal Brexit will send Britain into a recession and shrink the economy by three per cent, the UK’s official economic forecaster will say today.

In its first assessment of the economic impact of crashing out without a deal, the Office for Budget Responsibility report on how crashing out of the EU will affect wages, employment and house prices.

It also suggests that GDP will likely be at least 3 per cent lower under a No-Deal Brexit than if the UK leaves the EU with a deal.

Daily Mail

 

[IMHAL]

I see that the Brexiteers are determined to put a No Deal gun to their own head and pull the trigger. I say go ahead... it seems to be the only way that will put us out of our never ending Brexit misery. When the economic impact starts to bite we can then see what resolve those that voted for Brexit really have.

David Davis and BoJo are the cheerleaders who brought you Brexit. Charletans the both of them, and Brexiteers are putting their trust in them. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49021081

"I saw him not coming, not negotiating, grandstanding elsewhere [and] I thought, 'Oh my God, they haven't got a plan, they haven't got a plan.'

"That was really shocking, frankly, because the damage if you don't have a plan...

"Time's running out and you don't have a plan. It's like Lance Corporal Jones, you know, 'Don't panic, don't panic!' Running around like idiots."

 

[hurlerontheditch]

2 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

I see that the Brexiteers are determined to put a No Deal gun to their own head and pull the trigger. I say go ahead... it seems to be the only way that will put us out of our never ending Brexit misery. When the economic impact starts to bite we can then see what resolve those that voted for Brexit really have.

David Davis and BoJo are the cheerleaders who brought you Brexit. Charletans the both of them, and Brexiteers are putting their trust in them. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49021081

"I saw him not coming, not negotiating, grandstanding elsewhere [and] I thought, 'Oh my God, they haven't got a plan, they haven't got a plan.'

"That was really shocking, frankly, because the damage if you don't have a plan...

"Time's running out and you don't have a plan. It's like Lance Corporal Jones, you know, 'Don't panic, don't panic!' Running around like idiots."

 

Sad but true

 

how did we end up with the most useless people who would not hack in the real world, leading us

[Bruce Banner]

15 minutes ago, hurlerontheditch said:

Sad but true

 

how did we end up with the most useless people who would not hack in the real world, leading us

We should upstate old adage to...

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach,

Those who can do neither become career politicians. 

[crouch]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

We should upstate old adage to...

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach,

Those who can do neither become career politicians. 

Since we joined the EU a lot of the work has been outsourced to Brussels. Also devolution has meant more has been outsourced to the nations. Add the two together and you have much less work to do. Is this fact the reason we have much less capable people as our overlords?

[dryrot]

8 hours ago, zugzwang said:

 

And the Brexit Party's position on the defence of Europe? Is it written down somewhere?

Forgive me if I've asked before (more than once, in fact) but no-one seems to have the first idea.

I left this thread some time ago. Nothing much appears to have changed. 

Are you seriously unaware of the Brexit Party's position on the EU? Hint: Its to leave the EU. Hence the name.  (Sheesh!)

If the rest of the EU wants to sign up to a federal state, with centralised armed forces, fine. (Judging by the recent EU elections, thats not popular with the EU electorate, but when has that every bothered Brussels?  )

BTW: if the EU wants a single EU army, I would advise them not to be led by the current EU President, Fr.  Ursula von der Leyen, who was an acknowledged disaster as Germany's Defence Minister.

[dryrot]

49 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

I see that the Brexiteers are determined to put a No Deal gun to their own head and pull the trigger. I say go ahead... it seems to be the only way that will put us out of our never ending Brexit misery. When the economic impact starts to bite we can then see what resolve those that voted for Brexit really have.

David Davis and BoJo are the cheerleaders who brought you Brexit. Charletans the both of them, and Brexiteers are putting their trust in them. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49021081

"I saw him not coming, not negotiating, grandstanding elsewhere [and] I thought, 'Oh my God, they haven't got a plan, they haven't got a plan.'

"That was really shocking, frankly, because the damage if you don't have a plan...

"Time's running out and you don't have a plan. It's like Lance Corporal Jones, you know, 'Don't panic, don't panic!' Running around like idiots."

 

Just like the disaster predicted after the vote to leave. Yet unemployment is at amazing lows "But the unemployment rate, the number of people actively looking for work, held steady at 3.8%, as predicted by economists. It remains at its lowest level since the 1970s, and new figures also show wages growing at the fastest rate in 11 years."

No deal is a deal on WTO terms. With no payments to Brussels!

[GrizzlyDave]

9 hours ago, zugzwang said:

 

And the Brexit Party's position on the defence of Europe? Is it written down somewhere?

Forgive me if I've asked before (more than once, in fact) but no-one seems to have the first idea.

That’s a fair challenge.

Ask them.

[GrizzlyDave]

Boris has a secret weapon...

 

 

 

[thecrashingisles]

17 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

That’s a fair challenge.

Ask them.

Farage said before that offering a trade deal to Ukraine was "encroaching on Putin's space" so his policy seems to be whatever suits Putin.

[GrizzlyDave]

17 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Farage said before that offering a trade deal to Ukraine was "encroaching on Putin's space" so his policy seems to be whatever suits Putin.

Brexit bingo first call of the day ‘Putin’.

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

I left this thread some time ago. Nothing much appears to have changed. 

Are you seriously unaware of the Brexit Party's position on the EU? Hint: Its to leave the EU. Hence the name.  (Sheesh!)

If the rest of the EU wants to sign up to a federal state, with centralised armed forces, fine. (Judging by the recent EU elections, thats not popular with the EU electorate, but when has that every bothered Brussels?  )

BTW: if the EU wants a single EU army, I would advise them not to be led by the current EU President, Fr.  Ursula von der Leyen, who was an acknowledged disaster as Germany's Defence Minister.

Johnson and Hunt have promised to double down on European defence spending post-Brexit. Is it because they are both neoliberal Remainers at heart? Or perhaps they're seeking to ensure that UK arms manufacturers aren't  frozen out of future contract tenders? One assumes that the Batshit Party will endeavour to do likewise though it would be nice to see it written down.

One obvious benefit of a single European army is that it will enable the EU to recycle its surpluses away from the centre and into the periphery in the same manner as the US govt.

Edited July 18, 2019 by zugzwang