crouch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Lurkerbelow said: No. Honda's closure IS because of brexit. As I posted above the UK-JPN trade deal was stalled over the refusal of JPN to open up its car market. It didn't need to as it already had a decades long base of operations in the UK. Then suddenly JPN did an about face because of brexit and concluded the EU-JPN trade deal on the EU's terms because it's base of operations here in the UK was under threat. There would have been no restarting of trade talks if brexit did not happen, and Honda UK would not closing if brexit did not happen. Without a shadow of a doubt this closure is 100% the fault of brexit. No if's no but's no maybe's. It simply is. So for once in this whole miserable saga accept responsibility for what you've done instead of coming up with excuses. Right, so the local MP who says he's spoken to Honda and the minister is a lying scumbag whereas you have the definitive truth of the matter. Forgive me if I pause here. Can you provide any proof of what you say? If you are 100% certain this must mean that you have intimate knowledge about the decision process in Honda and I'd be very interested to hear about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 The Independent Group have left because they were unable to reform their organisation from within; but want us to remain in the EU and reform it from within... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, crouch said: Why is this thread 3200 pages long then? Is that just Leavers having a self congratulatory chat among themselves? This is and a few others on the web is our last stronghold. Nobody in politics or the media are interested in the fight. Feck it, 700,000 plus marched through London and were totally ignored. The original referendum was based on lies, now remain has no representation - there is no democracy here. You own it. Get on with the programme - whatever it might be. Remainers can just sit back for the next couple of decades and say I told you so every time we hear a step towards our falling over the edge into the void of na-da. Leavers will never hear the end of it, and nor should they. Willing foot-soldiers of the disaster capitalists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, byron78 said: I've a nephew who works for Honda in Swindon. Voted Leave. Think most did (Swindon in general was a "Leave" town). It's not Brexit 100% that's caused this, rather the threat/potential for a no deal Brexit. Of course Honda would leave if a 10% tariff on their exports looked remotely likely in the not too distant future. One of the reasons anyone who backs a no-deal Brexit tends to be deluded/a bit mad. Big tariffs on pretty much all our imports and exports nukes so many jobs it's unthinkable really. WTO terms are frankly a bit pants. I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese senior management asked their workforce, for the good of the company, to vote remain. The workforce, in the way that comes naturally to them and not wanting to kowtow to their bosses, voted to leave and the Japanese, being Japanese, rewarded what they saw as insubordination in the way that comes naturally to them. Japanese management with British workforce, the end result was predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, crouch said: But why would they announce this decision before we've left? Making a decision on something that may be remotely likely (an oxymoron but we'll let that pass) seems odd. Why not wait for another few weeks. It sounds to me like there are other factors at the back of this and Brexit was the final straw. The final straw was hubris from Jeremy Hunt: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/18/japan-almost-cancelled-brexit-talks-high-handed-letter-liam-fox-jeremy-hunt 8 minutes ago, jonb2 said: The departure of the Japanese is particularly sad as they have been entirely honourable and supportive throughout their presence here. Agree So much effort to build things up over the years (30+), torn down easily by idiots. It reminds me of when the statue of Saddam was toppled - little did they know what was round the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, Lurkerbelow said: No. Honda's closure IS because of brexit. As I posted above the UK-JPN trade deal was stalled over the refusal of JPN to open up its car market. It didn't need to as it already had a decades long base of operations in the UK. Then suddenly JPN did an about face because of brexit and concluded the EU-JPN trade deal on the EU's terms because it's base of operations here in the UK was under threat. There would have been no restarting of trade talks if brexit did not happen, and Honda UK would not closing if brexit did not happen. Without a shadow of a doubt this closure is 100% the fault of brexit. No if's no but's no maybe's. It simply is. So for once in this whole miserable saga accept responsibility for what you've done instead of coming up with excuses. All they ever come up with are excuses. When will they start telling about these promised unicorn uplands? 3100+ pages and still not one upside... but loads of obfuscation, denial and excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smash Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, Lurkerbelow said: No. Honda's closure IS because of brexit. As I posted above the UK-JPN trade deal was stalled over the refusal of JPN to open up its car market. It didn't need to as it already had a decades long base of operations in the UK. Then suddenly JPN did an about face because of brexit and concluded the EU-JPN trade deal on the EU's terms because it's base of operations here in the UK was under threat. There would have been no restarting of trade talks if brexit did not happen, and Honda UK would not closing if brexit did not happen. Without a shadow of a doubt this closure is 100% the fault of brexit. No if's no but's no maybe's. It simply is. So for once in this whole miserable saga accept responsibility for what you've done instead of coming up with excuses. Blimey, if I'm reading that correctly it's like Brexit precipitated the massive EU/JPN trade deal. If that's the case then UK looks like a total mug in the light of todays news about Japan's negotiators view of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese senior management asked their workforce, for the good of the company, to vote remain. The workforce, in the way that comes naturally to them and not wanting to kowtow to their bosses, voted to leave and the Japanese, being Japanese, rewarded what they saw as insubordination in the way that comes naturally to them. Japanese management with British workforce, the end result was predictable. Since it was decided to run down our manufacturing - first by the unions and then even harder by Thatcher - the Japanese have been a great thing for this country. Of course there are cultural differences. The Japs are a bit weird, but honour is high in their culture. It was symbiotic and the workforce should be proud of what they achieved in quality output - compared to the woeful story of Leyland and other British marques. I would not be surprised if the Japanese feel deeply betrayed. I doubt they will ever trust us again, and they won't be the only ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurkerbelow Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, crouch said: Right, so the local MP who says he's spoken to Honda and the minister is a lying scumbag whereas you have the definitive truth of the matter. Forgive me if I pause here. Can you provide any proof of what you say? If you are 100% certain this must mean that you have intimate knowledge about the decision process in Honda and I'd be very interested to hear about this. Oh come off it. We know conservative MP's lie all the time. Especially over brexit. It comes to them as easily as breathing. So why do you take any of their words at face value? And I've already posted a link on the issue. The EU-JPN trade deal happened because of brexit, and without that Honda would NOT be leaving. https://www.politico.eu/article/japan-eu-trade-deal-brexit-auto-industry/ So as I've already said stop coming up with excuses for what you've brought about, and for once in this whole miserable saga accept responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotblack42 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: Right, so the local MP who says he's spoken to Honda and the minister is a lying scumbag whereas you have the definitive truth of the matter. Forgive me if I pause here. Can you provide any proof of what you say? If you are 100% certain this must mean that you have intimate knowledge about the decision process in Honda and I'd be very interested to hear about this. Disclosure: I voted Leave, but only on balance. There are arguments for and against. The determination in some quarters to attach all ills to Brexit really is tragic. My Hamster's looking a bit peaky.. I wonder if its because...? For a long while, the media droning on about Brexit in general seemed to be the most boring thing that's ever happened, but its not. Staunch remainers bleating on about what a stupid idea Brexit is, desperately and tenuously linking it to everything and anything negative, whilst contributing absolutely nothing to preparations is the most tedious and irritating human behaviour exhibited since AL 288-1 walked the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Just now, hotblack42 said: Disclosure: I voted Leave, but only on balance. There are arguments for and against. The determination in some quarters to attach all ills to Brexit really is tragic. My Hamster's looking a bit peaky.. I wonder if its because...? For a long while, the media droning on about Brexit in general seemed to be the most boring thing that's ever happened, but its not. Staunch remainers bleating on about what a stupid idea Brexit is, desperately and tenuously linking it to everything and anything negative, whilst contributing absolutely nothing to preparations is the most tedious and irritating human behaviour exhibited since AL 288-1 walked the earth. What are the arguments for Brexit? How is it going to make life better for the man in the street? Here's a list of negative things SO FAR from a month ago. Tell me which ones ARE NOT linked to Brexit. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087666286648283136.html? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Lurkerbelow said: Oh come off it. We know conservative MP's lie all the time. Especially over brexit. It comes to them as easily as breathing. So why do you take any of their words at face value? And I've already posted a link on the issue. The EU-JPN trade deal happened because of brexit, and without that Honda would NOT be leaving. https://www.politico.eu/article/japan-eu-trade-deal-brexit-auto-industry/ So as I've already said stop coming up with excuses for what you've brought about, and for once in this whole miserable saga accept responsibility. Leavers have to believe whatever the Tories tell them. If they don't, their world collapses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Lurkerbelow said: Oh come off it. We know conservative MP's lie all the time. Especially over brexit. It comes to them as easily as breathing. So why do you take any of their words at face value? And I've already posted a link on the issue. The EU-JPN trade deal happened because of brexit, and without that Honda would NOT be leaving. https://www.politico.eu/article/japan-eu-trade-deal-brexit-auto-industry/ So as I've already said stop coming up with excuses for what you've brought about, and for once in this whole miserable saga accept responsibility. They lie some of the time but so do many people. As to lying especially over Brexit you know far more than I do. The good thing about Remainers is they know so much. As to taking their words at face value don't forget I'm stupid and gullible; that's why I voted Leave. I reserve judgement on this I think there is more to it, but Brexit was almost certainly a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 All the reasons why the Honda move is nothing to do with Brexit: - Honda say it isn't. There's no value to them in denying it if that were the case, could be quite convenient in fact. - The EU is removing tariffs on cars imported from Japan so Honda doesn't need to run factories in the EU anymore (once Swindon is shut they will have no car assembly in Europe). - They're refocussing on electric vehicles and closing other factories too - https://www.auto123.com/en/news/honda-closing-factory-focus-electric/64028/ Oh, and sales for them in Europe since 1990 (in 1000s): Not that any of these facts will get in the way for our resident die-hard remainers of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: The final straw was hubris from Jeremy Hunt: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/18/japan-almost-cancelled-brexit-talks-high-handed-letter-liam-fox-jeremy-hunt This was a failure of diplomacy. I had assumed that all this type of letter would be vetted for precisely this before it was sent. You can say things to an American or a Dutchman that you would be ill advised to say to a Japanese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said: All the reasons why the Honda move is nothing to do with Brexit: - Honda say it isn't. There's no value to them in denying it if that were the case, could be quite convenient in fact. - The EU is removing tariffs on cars imported from Japan so Honda doesn't need to run factories in the EU anymore (once Swindon is shut they will have no car assembly in Europe). - They're refocussing on electric vehicles and closing other factories too - https://www.auto123.com/en/news/honda-closing-factory-focus-electric/64028/ Oh, and sales for them in Europe since 1990 (in 1000s): Not that any of these facts will get in the way for our resident die-hard remainers of course. Remember the syllogism: All bad things are due to Brexit Honda's closure is a bad thing Therefore it's due to Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said: All the reasons why the Honda move is nothing to do with Brexit: - Honda say it isn't. There's no value to them in denying it if that were the case, could be quite convenient in fact. - The EU is removing tariffs on cars imported from Japan so Honda doesn't need to run factories in the EU anymore (once Swindon is shut they will have no car assembly in Europe). - They're refocussing on electric vehicles and closing other factories too - https://www.auto123.com/en/news/honda-closing-factory-focus-electric/64028/ Oh, and sales for them in Europe since 1990 (in 1000s): Not that any of these facts will get in the way for our resident die-hard remainers of course. This seems to me to be an accurate assessment. The accelerated timing of the EU-Japan deal, along with aviation emmissions, seems well coordinated for maximum instability for the UK. ? Edited February 18, 2019 by GrizzlyDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) The EU-Japan FTA removes non-tariff barriers, meaning that a car can enter into the EU without further checks...via the harmonisation of UNECE standards.. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-6784_en.htm Quote Motor vehicles – the agreement ensures that both Japan and the EU will fully align themselves to the same international standards on product safety and the protection of the environment, meaning that European cars will be subject to the same requirements in the EU and Japan, and will not need to be tested and certified again when exported to Japan. With Japan now committing itself to international car standards, EU exports of cars to Japan will become significantly simpler. This also paves the way for even stronger cooperation between the EU and Japan in international standard setting fora. It includes an accelerated dispute settlement between the two sides specifically for motor vehicles, similar to the one agreed under the EU-South Korea trade agreement. It also includes a safeguard and a clause allowing the EU to reintroduce tariffs in the event that Japan would (re)introduce non-tariff barriers to EU exports of vehicles. The agreement will also mean that hydrogen-fuelled cars that approved in the EU can be exported to Japan without further alterations. Edited February 18, 2019 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurkerbelow Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 34 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: All they ever come up with are excuses. When will they start telling about these promised unicorn uplands? 3100+ pages and still not one upside... but loads of obfuscation, denial and excuses. Indeed. Just look at this thread. An endless flow of excuses from the brexiteers. Not one of them. Not a single one will accept responsibility for what we all full well know is their fault including themselves. All I can do is shake my head in total abject disgust at these *******. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButter Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Leave voters seem adamant that nothing that has happened since the vote is related to the vote Not sure how it’s possible that NO EVENT since the life changing, once in a generation referendum has been in any way related to the massive country-splitting choice. Are there ANY leave voters here willing to list a single political or economic news story since the ref that they’d attribute to it? Or are all the chickens heads firmly agrounded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, PeanutButter said: Leave voters seem adamant that nothing that has happened since the vote is related to the vote Not sure how it’s possible that NO EVENT since the life changing, once in a generation referendum has been in any way related to the massive country-splitting choice. Are there ANY leave voters here willing to list a single political or economic news story since the ref that they’d attribute to it? Or are all the chickens heads firmly agrounded? I think Byron78 is the only one not with his head up Putins backside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, crouch said: This was a failure of diplomacy. I had assumed that all this type of letter would be vetted for precisely this before it was sent. You can say things to an American or a Dutchman that you would be ill advised to say to a Japanese. Especially if he's carrying a sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Especially if he's carrying a sword. Very interesting. I didn't realise there was so much pushing and shoving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButter Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) dupe Edited February 18, 2019 by PeanutButter laggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 https://news.yahoo.com/brexit-food-prices-rise-20-093300740.html?guccounter=1 Brexit: Food prices to rise up to 20% ‘virtually instantaneously’ after leaving EU, warns Birds Eye boss Must be the fault of diesel engines /s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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