Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[rockerboy]

38 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Of course it would be. A very sizeable percentage, possibly even the majority, don't want it.

Perhaps if the opposition parties get together and form an alliance before a GE they can oust BJ and his unholy cabal. 

we disagree here only on our rights to be revisionist about the questions asked, and the due process to change the decision afterwards.

As I say again - We voted in a referendum, and we also voted on it at a GE. There is no failure of democratic process here, and to say so is not accurate in my view. Whilst the referendum was non-legal, the GE confirmed it as policy from the mandate and even when repeatedly asked, there was never any confirmation that no-deal was ruled out by the Tory party

As painful as it is for you and all of us, Remaining was an vote lost. One major party campaigned on it and the others were against.

Anyway. the referendum question was very clear - "Do you want to leave" -  Even you must concede that when a result comes through, democracy demands that no-one shoudl be able to revise the meaning based on a future revisionist twist in what "Do you want to leave" is supposed to mean?

 to keep BB happy

Edited September 2, 2019 by rockerboy

[crouch]

4 minutes ago, rollover said:

But I would say most factors are Brexit related.

And I would say you're wrong but we'll never know.

[zugzwang]

23 minutes ago, rockerboy said:

One of the successful policies was of Austerity debt management for debts incurred under Labour (They admitted to it in the Treasury). 

Transparently, you know nothing about the operational realities of govt borrowing and spending.

Or, indeed, the causes of the Great Recession.

[Errol]

41 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Leaving with no deal would  be a failure of democracy.

Completely disagree. We were asked whether we wanted to leave. The country voted to leave in the largest exercise of democracy this nation has seen. How we leave was always to be effectively up to the Government of the day, but it was made clear in Cameron's Government leaflet that leaving entailed leaving the EU market etc etc.

Decision to leave was further confirmed in the general Election and by multiple votes in Parliament (enacting Art. 50 etc). 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Errol

[Bruce Banner]

11 minutes ago, rockerboy said:

we disagree here only on our rights to be revisionist about the questions asked, and the due process to change the decision afterwards.

As I say again - We voted in a referendum, and we also voted on it at a GE. There is no failure of democratic process here, and to say so is deceitful. Whilst the referendum was non-legal, the GE confirmed it as policy from the mandate and even when repeatedly asked, there was never any confirmation that no-deal was ruled out by the Tory party

As painful as it is for you and all of us, Remaining was an vote lost. One major party campaigned on it and the others were against.

Anyway. the referendum question was very clear - "Do you want to leave" -  Even you must concede that when a result comes through, democracy demands that no-one shoudl be able to revise the meaning based on a future revisionist twist in what "Do you want to leave" is supposed to mean?

 

Deceitful eh!

I could insult you as you just insulted me but you're not worth the effort.... Rocketboy!

[rockerboy]

4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Deceitful eh!

I could insult you as you just insulted me but you're not worth the effort.... Rocketboy!

Sorry BB, I did not insult you personally, I only said this

to say so is deceitful.

if you continue to say it is a failure of democracy and you now know it is not. then what you are saying can be looked at accordingly  no?

Edited September 2, 2019 by rockerboy

[Bruce Banner]

Just now, rockerboy said:

Sorry BB, I did not insult you personally, I only said this

to say so is deceitful.

if you continue to say it is a failure of democracy and you now know it is not. then it is deceitful to say so   -  no?.

 

But since I did say so it was a personal insult and you just repeated to offence.

[rockerboy]

Just now, Bruce Banner said:

But since I did say so it was a personal insult and you just repeated to offence.

OK - if you take it personally, I retract it

[Bruce Banner]

24 minutes ago, rockerboy said:

 

 to keep BB happy

[zugzwang]

35 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

You can get odds of 1/3 on Tories, 7/2 on Labour winning the most seats.

That isn't necessarily a majority of course, but it tells you the way it's going. Tory odds are generally shortening, Labour drifting.

Labour were 24 pts behind in 2017. Neck-and-neck at the finish.

When the smokescreen of disinformation lifts and the general public hear Corbs speaking for himself unmediated by the Tory gutter press the political dynamics change.

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, rockerboy said:

its very easy - move to the European mainland...... 

That comment says so much.  Nevermind the implication that Remainers should leave the country, why do you equate the EU with "the European mainland"?  Is Ireland part of the European mainland? 

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

1 minute ago, zugzwang said:

Labour were 24 pts behind in 2017. Neck-and-neck at the finish.

When the smokescreen of disinformation lifts and the general public hear Corbs speaking for himself unmediated by the Tory gutter press the political dynamics change.

I suppose you have to ask whether that is due to a great campaign by Corbyn, or a poor one by May.

If anything I would say Johnson would be better than May, and Corbyn would struggle to live up to his past achievements due to his legacy over the past few months.

That's only my opinion of course.

 

[Confusion of VIs]

15 minutes ago, rockerboy said:

No it isn't ! 

In the context of the question we were asked at the referendum, leaving with no deal is the exactly the same as Leaving with a deal, it is still leaving - we were only asked the question "Do you want to leave". Since then, we also had an election where the Labour party said "we will only leave with a deal" AND LABOUR LOST THE LAST GE 

Leaving without a deal is not a failure of democracy at all

 Any democratic exercise thsr results in an outcome opposed by over half the electorate has to be judged a failure.

 

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 Any democratic exercise thsr results in an outcome opposed by over half the electorate has to be judged a failure.

 

When was the last time a UK government got over 50% of the vote ?

[rockerboy]

5 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 Any democratic exercise thsr results in an outcome opposed by over half the electorate has to be judged a failure.

 

No - it is not a failure -  "First past the post" has done this at many  GE.

 

 

[slawek]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Leaving with no deal would  be a failure of democracy.  

Leaving the EU in anyway would be a failure of democracy. 

All recent polls show that Remain has a 5-10% lead over Leave.

[GrizzlyDave]

8 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

When was the last time a UK government got over 50% of the vote ?

A long time ago...

 

[crouch]

9 minutes ago, slawek said:

Leaving the EU in anyway would be a failure of democracy. 

All recent polls show that Remain has a 5-10% lead over Leave.

Opinion is always changing; in six months time it might be leave that is in the majority. We don't turf governments out because polls show them losing support after six months in office.

[debtlessmanc]

11 minutes ago, slawek said:

Leaving the EU in anyway would be a failure of democracy. 

All recent polls show that Remain has a 5-10% lead over Leave.

Same as the poles did before the referendum

[slawek]

9 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

A long time ago...

 

2010 Con+LibDem 59%

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, zugzwang said:

What successful policies?!

No money left??

 

 

 

The only countries in Europe for which that graph looks any better are the Netherlands and Germany. That is in its own way the problem with the E.U.

[thecrashingisles]

4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Same as the poles did before the referendum

The poles?  Assuming you mean the polls, you're wrong.  Many of them had a clear lead for Leave in the run up to the referendum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#2016

Edited September 2, 2019 by thecrashingisles

[debtlessmanc]

3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

The poles?  Assuming you mean the polls, you're wrong.  Many of them had a clear lead for Leave in the run up to the referendum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#2016

Only in the last few weeks, when the referendum was announced remain was clearly ahead.

 

edit to add, looking at that information impossible to draw any clear conclusions! 

Edited September 2, 2019 by debtlessmanc

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, debtlessmanc said:

Only in the last few weeks, when the referendum was announced remain was clearly ahead. 

Wrong again.  The first two polls after the date of the referendum was announced had Leave ahead, and Leave was ahead in 15 straight polls (with one tie) after Cameron first announced the policy of holding a referendum.

[debtlessmanc]

1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said:

Wrong again.  The first two polls after the date of the referendum was announced had Leave ahead, and Leave was ahead in 15 straight polls (with one tie) after Cameron first announced the policy of holding a referendum.

I already edited my post, if you look at the huge raft of data there it is impossible to extrapolate from polls now to draw any clear conclusions. They are all over the place.

Edited September 2, 2019 by debtlessmanc