Gigantic Purple Slug Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 minute ago, zugzwang said: May's deal was/is terrible! I suspect the Labour executive thought that she would get it through just the same and didn't want to be seen to endorse it. The Labour manifesto will win the next GE. Best of luck ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Riedquat said: If by that you mean "Have absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever." But there's a great deal between that and being in the EU and painting people who want to leave as being in that position isn't any more sound than painting Remainers as wanting a long-term outcome of being a part of a federal EU nation. Those are just the extremes, most people's hopes lie somewhere on the spectrum between them. I'm making a different point about the nature of the UK. The UK is a union state, and different parts of it see their national identities differently. Even in England there is a very resilient core of people who feel a very strong European identity, and will never be reconciled to giving up European citizenship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Riedquat said: If by that you mean "Have absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever." But there's a great deal between that and being in the EU and painting people who want to leave as being in that position isn't any more sound than painting Remainers as wanting a long-term outcome of being a part of a federal EU nation. Those are just the extremes, most people's hopes lie somewhere on the spectrum between them. Shame that 'most people' did not get to vote on such an outcome. Shame that most people will be unhappy with the likely no-deal outcome. It would have been interesting to see if such a deal it would have had popular support and won out against remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The Labour manifesto will win the next GE. Interesting - If you believe in the fairy elf labour policies of tomorrow, then maybe so. Meanwhile a non-labour government busies itself with succesful policies over the last nine years, and when the chips are down, it will be this that helps the Tories win the next GE I still remember Gordon Brown saying "there will no longer be a boom nor bust"', having sold gold to help the bankers and presided over HPI and the 2007 collapse (remember them?) with the Tories finally getting back into power after that shambles to see a note left at the treasury "There's no money left" Edited September 2, 2019 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Shame that 'most people' did not get to vote on such an outcome. Shame that most people will be unhappy with the likely no-deal outcome. It would have been interesting to see if such a deal it would have had popular support and won out against remain. Then a shame that those who refuse to acknowledge they lost are so hell-bent on being unable to accept any sort of deal that that default was inevitable. Although in the long run remember that this is only no deal on the transition, not on the UK's final relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: I'm making a different point about the nature of the UK. The UK is a union state, and different parts of it see their national identities differently. Even in England there is a very resilient core of people who feel a very strong European identity, and will never be reconciled to giving up European citizenship. Indeed there are, as there are with the opposite view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: I'm making a different point about the nature of the UK. The UK is a union state, and different parts of it see their national identities differently. Even in England there is a very resilient core of people who feel a very strong European identity, and will never be reconciled to giving up European citizenship. its very easy - move to the European mainland...... Edited September 2, 2019 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The Labour manifesto will win the next GE. It'll get some votes but with Brexit dominating and Labour generally being all over the place I can see the LibDems getting too many votes from them. They'll get some from the Tories too but I'd guess not as many (they've already alienated most of the people they possibly can!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Just now, rockerboy said: its very easy - move to the European mainland - F#ck off No, that's not fair. Although I disagree with them their view on how they'd like the UK to be is just as valid as anyone else's. "Don't like it, sod off and leave us to do what we want" isn't a position I've ever thought deserves any respect when it's people making a mess of things I care about so it would be hypocritical to say the same thing to others. It's their country too and it will be a healthier one if they're here trying to get us to rejoin than if we try to drive out dissenting views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexton Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, rockerboy said: its very easy - move to the European mainland...... I already have done but my fear is that I will be deported and dumped at Heathrow where I will have to live until I expire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Riedquat said: No, that's not fair. Although I disagree with them their view on how they'd like the UK to be is just as valid as anyone else's. "Don't like it, sod off and leave us to do what we want" isn't a position I've ever thought deserves any respect when it's people making a mess of things I care about so it would be hypocritical to say the same thing to others. It's their country too and it will be a healthier one if they're here trying to get us to rejoin than if we try to drive out dissenting views. yes - it is an unfairness I suppose - Making someone choose between outcomes where none of the options were wished for or preferable. Just musing really - Its ironically similar to the Brexit referendum questions. We were all forced to choose an outcome that ends up being forced on EVERYONE in the Country. It is this which measures our democracy. People seem to think that democracy gives them what they themselves want - Democracy is anything but - it is about forcing you to choose and forcing you to accept what the majority want. The big deal about European democracy is that if we stay, we are still forced to accept what us and 26 other countries want If someone wants to remain a European citizen, then they realistically have no other choice really, but to move to the mainland and it is better they realise it now. I personally hope that those that want to stay in Europe get their wish to stay there, be a European citizen with EU rights etc. Of course anyone who wants to stay here in the UK and are happy to accept and abide by the "smaller" democractic will of the UK, then I hope they can stay too, and be a UK citizen, but only as long as they are happy with their choice, otherwise what is the point in living somewhere where you don't agree how it is governed? We are living in a period of quick change Edited September 2, 2019 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 37 minutes ago, kzb said: But that was intended to stop members having their own trade deals with countries outside the CU surely. Perhaps also to stop countries within the CU having special deals with each other also. Art 50 clearly intended for the future relationship to be within scope of the withdrawal negotiations. Probably but, whether or not by design, it prevents members negotiating with themselves. The legal position was looked into after the referendum vote and was clear enough for the UK to give up thoughts of challenging it. Just another of the many things that should have been clarified and communicated to the people before a vote was held. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 8 hours ago, rockerboy said: I believe Boris is waiting for his oponents to reveal their hand(s). All is on point and going his way because time is on his side. His recent political movements (Calling bluff) are forcing the remainers to either shut up or back themselves on to the deselection wallhooks of their own making. (I said this a while back!!) Anyways, in comes arch serpent T.Blair - he knew this woudl happen and has already prepared his response "Say no to GE". Because Tony Blair knows that all is lost, re stopping Brexit, Tony Blair would rather have a no-deal Brexit than a Labour party confirmed out of power. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49552403 There is a good chance no party will win a majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, rockerboy said: Interesting - If you believe in the fairy elf labour policies of tomorrow, then maybe so. Meanwhile a non-labour government busies itself with succesful policies over the last nine years, and when the chips are down, it will be this that helps the Tories win the next GE I still remember Gordon Brown saying "there will no longer be a boom nor bust"', having sold gold to help the bankers and presided over HPI and the 2007 collapse (remember them?) with the Tories finally getting back into power after that shambles to see a note left at the treasury "There's no money left" What successful policies?! No money left?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, rockerboy said: yes - it is an unfairness I suppose - Making someone choose between outcomes where none of the options were wished for or preferable. Just musing really - Its ironically similar to the Brexit referendum questions. We were all forced to choose an outcome that ends up being forced on EVERYONE in the Country. It is this which measures our democracy. People seem to think that democracy gives them what they themselves want - Democracy is anything but - it is about forcing you to choose and forcing you to accept what the majority want. Support for no deal is around 30-32%, less than a third of the country. There is and never was a Brexit option supported by the majority of the country. Leaving with no deal would be a failure of democracy. May could have made the case for an EFTA Brexit and probably persuaded the majority of the country to support it but the she decided it was more important to pander to the right wing of the Tory party than to try and reunify the country. The fact that she was then stabbed in the back by the right wing of the party, shouldn't have come as a great surprise as its what they do to every Tory leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 minute ago, zugzwang said: What successful policies?! No money left?? One of the successful policies was of Austerity debt management for debts incurred under Labour (They admitted to it in the Treasury). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Leaving with no deal would be a failure of democracy. No it isn't ! In the context of the question we were asked at the referendum, leaving with no deal is the exactly the same as Leaving with a deal, it is still leaving - we were only asked the question "Do you want to leave". Since then, we also had an election where the Labour party said "we will only leave with a deal" AND LABOUR LOST THE LAST GE Leaving without a deal is not a failure of democracy at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Kosmin said: There is a good chance no party will win a majority. You can get odds of 1/3 on Tories, 7/2 on Labour winning the most seats. That isn't necessarily a majority of course, but it tells you the way it's going. Tory odds are generally shortening, Labour drifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 minute ago, rockerboy said: No it isn't ! In the context of the question we were asked at the referendum, leaving with no deal is the exactly the same as Leaving with a deal, it is still leaving - we were only asked the question "Do you want to leave". Since then, we also had an election where the Labour party said "we will only leave with a deal" AND LABOUR LOST THE LAST GE Leaving without a deal is not a failure of democracy at all Of course it would be. A very sizeable percentage, possibly even the majority, don't want it. Perhaps if the opposition parties get together and form an alliance before a GE they can oust BJ and his unholy cabal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: If the long term outcome that people want is the UK detached from the EU, they should understand that it's not possible. Yes, - This is the can we are kicking past 31st October. Maybe we can hold out until the EU starts collapsing with pension and debt problems - The problems of Italy and Greece are not going away soon. On another note, Have you been to Italy recently? I was shocked how much grime and poverty there is there now. Not only that, but armed guards were on the streets by the hotels where western tourists were staying. This is not something I expected to see in a European capital. Yellow vests ain't stopping soon either Edited September 2, 2019 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said: It may be a question that no politician would answer but it's still relevant to the debate. Of course the civil service will have prepared a briefing giving exactly that information. In the LBC clip I posted the doctor named said that he was concerned with Yellowhammer in March so it may be that the situation has been reviewed and updated since then - May was of course still PM at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: Who is 'we'? it's the posted article which contains a reference to both prices and price fluctuation and availability due to Brexit. There is no meantion of seasonal factors in the article.... unless you misguidedly count them as economic factors... Is it only in Brexitland there is no correlation between availability and price and only in Brexitland that all negative factors are simply due to the weather and the 'wrong season'. Must be nice living in such a simple world...suits you sir. The "we" is the royal delusional Remainer "we" that knows all. Seasonal factors are economic factors because - surprise, surprise - they affect supply. No, it's only in the la la Remainer land where every bad thing is due to Brexit that these things occur. Must be nice living in such a simple world...suits you sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 5 hours ago, crouch said: This is the video: See from 20 secs in when he says "there are a number of economic factors in play....". It is a reasonable assumption that some of those factors are not Brexit related - they may be seasonable - so he was saying that food prices fluctuate for other reasons - which they do. It constantly amazes me how desperate you guys are to divert and offload the blame. Yes and no! But I would say most factors are Brexit related. Quote UK pound hit as talk of snap election swirls FT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 6 hours ago, jonb2 said: I told you. Comments gathered from other forums. People with the conditions mentioned are seriously shitting themselves And all your little brain can do is worry about one person joking about gas chambers for Leavers. It's true - Leavers care only for themselves - "I've got mine - so feck off". Good thing Brexit has surfaced people like you for the incredibly selfish type. And do you think a government which puts such a low priority on those with chronic conditions is good for this country? Patriotism includes giving a shit about other people. Don't you dare claim a molecule of it. I’m 100% about caring brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 hours ago, kzb said: Sorry, what I meant was: where, in a treaty or a law, does it say the future trading relationship can only be negotiated after the UK has become a "third country". Article 50 implies the very opposite. Is there some other treaty or law that covers this? Article 218 tfeu.. https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/article-218 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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