Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[IMHAL]

7 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

From the horses mouth, so to speak..

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87129

...an interesting read, where Cummings, Banks, Farage et al. were utterly complicit in not wanting an exit plan...

I don't see it as a failure of the Leave campaign (as suggested by the author) - it was deliberate policy. I see it as a failure of the commission responsible for setting the terms of the referendum - they allowed the Leave campaign the luxury and advantage of having the widest possible net to capture voters by allowing them to 'keep it vague'. An absolute failure and dereliction of duty. The commission should have ensured that the two choices where on equal terms - 'the current deal' vs 'the new deal' , a like for like choice - only in that way could the people make a legitimate and informed decision. Instead we had the current deal and the choice of some all encompassing fantasy.

The article nicely backs up what I have been saying on here for quite some time.

"The first fatal mistake, as he saw it, was the deliberate decision of the official Leave campaign in 2016 not to suggest any specific plan for how best to leave. This subsequently allowed all the different competing factions to claim that their own delusional strategy was what the country had voted for. 

By coincidence, or not, this is picked up by the Observer's Nick Cohen who writes a piece headlined: "Brexiters never had a real exit plan. No wonder they avoided the issue"."
 

Edited January 28, 2019 by IMHAL

[aheadofthecurve]

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

If remain is wrong, we look stupid. If you are wrong you ****** the country, its kids and its future. I prefer to err on the side of caution, rather than succumbing to this flag sucking patriotic horseshit.

How do you know remaining in the EU isn't the choice that irreparably damages the country, its kids and its future? Judging by the fall in living standards over the past few decades in the UK that have coincided with our membership in the EU I'd say I'm the one erring on the side of caution.

[Chunketh]

44 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Did you not see the "I" in that sentence? 

[Chunketh]

2 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said:

How do you know remaining in the EU isn't the choice that irreparably damages the country, its kids and its future? Judging by the fall in living standards over the past few decades in the UK that have coincided with our membership in the EU I'd say I'm the one erring on the side of caution.

I think the lowering of living standards is down to our own choice of government, remember we were the sick man of Europe before we joined. That "sunlit" upland is what awaits us. I don't for a second believe the shower of muppets we currently have are capable of delivering any other outcome.

[aheadofthecurve]

1 minute ago, Chunketh said:

I think the lowering of living standards is down to our own choice of government, remember we were the sick man of Europe before we joined. That "sunlit" upland is what awaits us. I don't for a second believe the shower of muppets we currently have are capable of delivering any other outcome.

That's fair enough. You have a self deprecating nature that has had it punched in to you by mass media that we are insufficient and incapable and our only hope is to give up our independence so an outside force can rule us properly. I'm sorry that you have allowed somebody to stick their finger in your face and tell you that you're no good. I still have my backbone and so do 17,000,000 others.

[crouch]

7 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

I think the lowering of living standards is down to our own choice of government, remember we were the sick man of Europe before we joined. That "sunlit" upland is what awaits us. I don't for a second believe the shower of muppets we currently have are capable of delivering any other outcome.

I think the reason living standards are lower is more to do with energy costs than our own choices and one which afflicts all countries - in the EU or out. Brexit in my view is a sideshow; there are far more important issues bubbling away in the background ( automation/AI; demographics; climate change) but in the current climate these get no traction.

[Chunketh]

13 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said:

That's fair enough. You have a self deprecating nature that has had it punched in to you by mass media that we are insufficient and incapable and our only hope is to give up our independence so an outside force can rule us properly. I'm sorry that you have allowed somebody to stick their finger in your face and tell you that you're no good. I still have my backbone and so do 17,000,000 others.

Obvious troll is obvious. Please just ****** off you nasty little ****.

[aheadofthecurve]

27 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Obvious troll is obvious. Please just ****** off you nasty little ****.

People who don't agree with you must be trolls in your worldview. Your opinion is the only one that can be right. You've probably got a lot of growing up to do buddy.

[IMHAL]

45 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Obvious troll is obvious. Please just ****** off you nasty little ****.

The game they are playing is scripted.

- Keep it vague (they still have no solution for Brexit that commands a majority or popular support, because it does not exist) 

- Keep it simple so that the masses can understand and repeat (don't go into the complexity otherwise  you will expose it's obvious flaws)

- Keep trashing the experts (because it protects them from criticism and gives them a 'legitimacy' that they would otherwise not have)

......and finally..... keep repeating we won and you lost.

It's a good strategy if you are morally bankrupt and want to screw up the country. 

EDIT: .....forgot one thing.......blame everyone else if it's not working.

Edited January 28, 2019 by IMHAL

[zugzwang]

3 hours ago, hurlerontheditch said:

It was a metaphor. It’s pie in the sky to think otherwise. 

 

Which tree in the forest does the best? The one who reaches above the canopy. The strongest survive. Darwinism at its most basic.  The world is not fair and was never meant to be fair and equal 

That's not Darwinism. That's not even a piss-poor charicature of Darwinism. That's a two-line synopsis of Mein Kampf.

[Confusion of VIs]

6 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

I think he's an idiot on Brexit, but you can't put him in the same league as the Wilsons.

Well he is obviously more competent, couldn't really not be, and just gobby and  irritating rather than. gobby and obnoxious.

However, essentially have both done the same thing spotted a new opportunity and quickly exploited it to the max.

 

[Buzzardo2]

22 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said:

People who don't agree with you must be trolls in your worldview. Your opinion is the only one that can be right. You've probably got a lot of growing up to do buddy.

LOL. You've clearly not listened to James O'Brien recently, and have not yet been properly educated to know what the "REAL FACTS" are....

Didn't you know - every single one of the 17,000,000 who voted Leave is a de facto "racist..." was "lied to...by nasty liars, don't you know" and "too thick to know what they were voting for..." Anyone who thinks anything differently will just get talked over, patronised, condescended-to and generally sneered at. If that all fails, just start with the ad-homs...

Sadly the echo-chambers that are O'Brien's drivel "show" on LBC, most of the output of the BBC ("Luther" excepted!) and 50+% of this ghastly thread, are peddling their propaganda at such full-throttle that I think some of them are starting to genuinely believe what they trot out!!

B2

 

[IMHAL]

cue...newbie reinforcements....whatsup?  Starting to get twitchy are we ...been rumbled perhaps....your inner workings exposed.

 

 

[kzb]

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

I think the lowering of living standards is down to our own choice of government, remember we were the sick man of Europe before we joined. That "sunlit" upland is what awaits us. I don't for a second believe the shower of muppets we currently have are capable of delivering any other outcome.

Can I ask what is your age group please?

[Chunketh]

30 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

The game they are playing is scripted.

- Keep it vague (they still have no solution for Brexit that commands a majority or popular support, because it does not exist) 

- Keep it simple so that the masses can understand and repeat (don't go into the complexity otherwise  you will expose it's obvious flaws)

- Keep trashing the experts (because it protects them from criticism and gives them a 'legitimacy' that they would otherwise not have)

......and finally..... keep repeating we won and you lost.

It's a good strategy if you are morally bankrupt and want to screw up the country. 

EDIT: .....forgot one thing.......blame everyone else if it's not working.

I wasn't actually accusing him of trolling for being a brexiteer, that is his prerogative. Rather I was taking exception to me pointing out that I had no faith in our political class and him coming back to say that somehow meant I had a self deprecating nature and that 17 million patriots were somehow better than me.

It's trolling, simple as that. Anyhow, I gave him the benefit of the doubt before but he is back on ignore and will stay that way.  

[Chunketh]

Just now, kzb said:

Can I ask what is your age group please?

40-50

[slawek]

11 hours ago, aheadofthecurve said:

60 days until the sun rises on an independent United Kingdom. The fight for our independence has been one of our hardest fought battles in decades. It has seen traitorous politicians, loyal only to their pay masters, come out of hiding to admit their allegiance is first to the EU. It has seen an orchestrated media attack on the democratic vote taken by the UK electorate. The lies told by the media about the negatives of our freedom and independence will be subject to the cold light of day. The traitors within our own midst will be forced to "put up or shut up" as their tiresome fight against democracy will no longer have the backing of the EU. The Brexiteers, the heroes who have fought hard for our freedom and independence, who have withstood the media barrage of lies, who have shown that courage and conviction in what is right is more important than appearing politically correct will not only have my respect and the respect of other patriots but will have the unending privilege of being able to look their reflection in the eye - without the remoaner shame - knowing they helped preserve the home of the future generations.

Oh my dear. This is clearly requires a medical attention. 

[kzb]

10 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

40-50

We joined the EEC on 01 January 1973.

So if you are 50 you were a toddler.

No matter, you can look at the economic data from that period and see how 1973 marked the start of the end of unbroken growth we had enjoyed since WW2.  Other European countries inevitably grew faster from a base of devastation, and some of them caught up with us.

The bad stuff you see on the TV about the 1970s didn't start till after we joined.  The EU didn't rescue us from the 1970s.  It was one of the factors that caused the 1970s.

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by kzb

[IMHAL]

7 minutes ago, kzb said:

We joined the EEC on 01 January 1973.

So if you are 50 you were a toddler.

No matter, you can look at the economic data from that period and see how 1973 marked the start of the end of unbroken growth we had enjoyed since WW2.  Other European countries inevitably grew faster from a base of devastation, and some of them caught up with us.

The bad stuff you see on the TV about the 1970s didn't start till after we joined.  The EU didn't rescue us from the 1970s.  It was one of the factors that caused the 1970s.

 

Perhaps you'd like to expand?.

Our politicians wanted to join the CM because we were starting the decline in the 60's. The 1970 also marked the end of post WW2 expansion which affected much of the western world. We also had a large oil price shock at around that time which resulted in stagflation, the 1970 being a period of very high inflation. If you look at inflation from then on-wards it is relatively stable and lower. 

 

[jonb2]

4 hours ago, hurlerontheditch said:

It was a metaphor. It’s pie in the sky to think otherwise. 

 

Which tree in the forest does the best? The one who reaches above the canopy. The strongest survive. Darwinism at its most basic.  The world is not fair and was never meant to be fair and equal 

Actually Hurler this is a misconception. it's the most adaptable that survive.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

Obvious troll is obvious. Please just ****** off you nasty little ****.

Block him, waste of time reading that crap. 

[cock-eyed octopus]

24 minutes ago, kzb said:

We joined the EEC on 01 January 1973.

So if you are 50 you were a toddler.

No matter, you can look at the economic data from that period and see how 1973 marked the start of the end of unbroken growth we had enjoyed since WW2.  Other European countries inevitably grew faster from a base of devastation, and some of them caught up with us.

The bad stuff you see on the TV about the 1970s didn't start till after we joined.  The EU didn't rescue us from the 1970s.  It was one of the factors that caused the 1970s.

 

There were a couple of factors, generally ignored, which I think pushed inflation in the 70s:

1) Decimalisation. This particularly affected food prices, as they were generally rounded up, & 1/2 ps soon disappeared. The effect was as much psychological as anything because people still tended to think a penny was a penny.

2) Joining the Common Market. I think it was the Daily Mirror that used to keep track of the cost of a basket of shopping; I remember them showing the cost of a similar basket on the Continent & it was vastly higher (I can't remember how much, but it was at least 20% & fuel prices were around double). Sure enough staple prices here soon started to rise to Continental levels.

This pressure contributed to the Unions demanding higher wages, government & industry resistance & the resultant civil unrest.

There were a lot of other complex factors (as always) operating simultaneously (oil price crisis for one) but I don't think the above factors can be ignored.

[aheadofthecurve]

1 hour ago, Buzzardo2 said:

Sadly the echo-chambers that are O'Brien's drivel "show" on LBC, most of the output of the BBC ("Luther" excepted!) and 50+% of this ghastly thread, are peddling their propaganda at such full-throttle that I think some of them are starting to genuinely believe what they trot out!!

What gets me is they will post on a forum dedicated to wanting to see UK housing prices return to a sensible level yet want to continue support for one of the biggest causes of the housing price increase - unsustainable levels of migration in to the UK, courtesy of the EU. One of the most touted figures is that we need about 300,000 houses per year to keep up with demand but are only building 100,000 - a shortfall of 200,000. Net migration in to the UK runs at about 300,000 per year. If we could even reduce this to level of the 1990's (about 50,000 per year) we would do a great deal to ensuring the demand is reduced.

To put that 300,000 per year in to perspective, that's the entire population of Northumberland every year.

Edited January 28, 2019 by aheadofthecurve

[Captain Kirk]

12 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Your posts on the EMA are if anything even less informed than those on the WTO.

We paid around 13% of the EMA's budget. They spent around 30% of that budget in the UK, so in pure monetary terms it was a highly profitable enterprise for the UK. 

In addition to the money directly by the agency, most of the companies whose medicines are undergoing approval maintain UK based teams to liaise with the EMA during the process, these teams will now move to Amsterdam. The loss from this is a fair bit larger than from losing the EMA itself.

The UK will now have to replicate the function of the EMA, so pay the whole cost of something we used to get for 13%. Or as the government is trying to, negotiate a deal to pay the EU to approve medicines for us.  

If we do end up having to duplicate the EMA, as well as costing us much more, it will delay British patients access to medicines as companies prioritise going through the expensive and time consuming regulation process according to the value of market for those medicines.

The means the priority markets are the EU and US, everyone else waits their turn.  As a second tier market we will also be presented with evidence from US and EU trials rather than being able to design them to meet the needs of UK patients. This gives us problems trying to retain top level staff to carry out regulation, as they will find better paid and more interesting work as part of the EMA teams in Amsterdam.  

All in losing the EMA is pure bad news for the UK, there is no upside. 

Yawn. Gave up posting on this thread. Happy Brexit!

Edited January 28, 2019 by Captain Kirk

[Confusion of VIs]

9 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

From the horses mouth, so to speak..

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87129

...an interesting read, where Cummings, Banks, Farage et al. were utterly complicit in not wanting an exit plan...

It's only interesting is you actually read it.

Leavers now seem to have reached the point where they are behaving like conspiracy theorists whose initial reasons for believing in the conspiracy have all been debunked, but no matter they are going to continue believing and are now ignoring or disregarding all evidence that goes against their belief.