Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

[Dyson Fury]

11 hours ago, hi5lo5 said:

https://www.property118.com/philip-hammond-prepared-u-turn-now-put-pressure-reverse-section-24/95489/

Their logic is stupendous.

"Hammond has U-turned on NICs so now logically he must have to U-turn on S24". (Last week it was: "Hammond has said that similar work should be taxed similarly, so logically he must have to U-turn on S24".)

In fact quite the opposite; the NIC U-turn means there is a £2bn tax hole over the next 4 years to fill, and he'll announce his response to that in the Autumn Statement.  Meanwhile the 3% SDLT surcharge is bringing in more tax revenue than projected; meaning that (a) it is a tax which easily raises a lot of revenue (b) it is not yet achieving its stated aim of dampening 2nd home and landlord purchases.  So to me that looks like an increase in SDLT surcharge from 3% to maybe 5% is all but certain.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Dyson Fury

[monkeyprojects]

5 minutes ago, Dyson Fury said:

Their logic is stupendous.

"Hammond has U-turned on NICs so now logically he must have to U-turn on S24". (Last week it was: "Hammond has said that similar work should be taxed similarly, so logically he must have to U-turn on S24".)

In fact quite the opposite; the NIC U-turn means there is a £2bn tax hole over the next 4 years to fill, and he'll announce his response to that in the Autumn Statement.  Meanwhile the 3% SDLT surcharge is bringing in more tax revenue than projected; meaning that (a) it is a tax which easily raises a lot of revenue (b) it is not yet achieving its stated aim of dampening 2nd home and landlord purchases.  So to me that looks like an increase in SDLT surcharge from 3% to maybe 5% is all but certain.

The 3% SDLT surcharge is not S24 though... The impact of S24 is unknown but as there is a £2bn hole it needs to be continued (heck it needs to be accelerated and reduce to 0% relief).

[Venger]

Would suggest more thought and care is given before making claims in posts about named individuals.

I have to keep myself in check about the very same thing, but I really try, and use code-words when jesting about some individual BTLers.

Unless you have proof, as I understand things, that is very far from the reality position for the named landlord, and so you could be inviting trouble upon yourself if you know anything about anything internet and social media. 

Some BTLers may go bankrupt, but let's not call it before it happens.

The Private Portfolio Landlord tag seems to be something new, and quite amusing.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Venger

[Venger]

Just suggesting to post with care about real-world individuals.

Moderators have advised us about it on a few occasions.

I can admit my own cautious position about it comes from experience that I would prefer no other HPCer go through.

On 5/2/2016 at 4:28 PM, The Moderators said:

Once again the mods have had to remove posts that are possibly defamatory.

Please think twice before miscalling people. 

 

[Barnsey]

1 hour ago, Dyson Fury said:

Their logic is stupendous.

"Hammond has U-turned on NICs so now logically he must have to U-turn on S24". (Last week it was: "Hammond has said that similar work should be taxed similarly, so logically he must have to U-turn on S24".)

In fact quite the opposite; the NIC U-turn means there is a £2bn tax hole over the next 4 years to fill, and he'll announce his response to that in the Autumn Statement.  Meanwhile the 3% SDLT surcharge is bringing in more tax revenue than projected; meaning that (a) it is a tax which easily raises a lot of revenue (b) it is not yet achieving its stated aim of dampening 2nd home and landlord purchases.  So to me that looks like an increase in SDLT surcharge from 3% to maybe 5% is all but certain.

It'll be BTL or pension tax relief. I know which one I'd target to win the next election.

[Exiled Canadian]

3 hours ago, Barnsey said:

It'll be BTL or pension tax relief. I know which one I'd target to win the next election.

I wonder how much extra tax it would raise if you removed the 20% tax credit for interest payments from all landlords with more than one rental property?  (Just a thought Phil) - most landlords haven't even cottoned on to S24 yet so there's unlikely to be an NI style "popular uprising".

Edited March 16, 2017 by Exiled Canadian

[hi5lo5]

Thanks @Venger

4 hours ago, Venger said:

Just suggesting to post with care about real-world individuals.

Moderators have advised us about it on a few occasions.

I can admit my own cautious position about it comes from experience that I would prefer no other HPCer go through.

 

 

[Pop321]

6 hours ago, Exiled Canadian said:

I wonder how much extra tax it would raise if you removed the 20% tax credit for interest payments from all landlords with more than one rental property?  (Just a thought Phil) - most landlords haven't even cottoned on to S24 yet so there's unlikely to be an NI style "popular uprising".

That's a ridiculous suggestion. Unfair and discriminatory. I am writing to my MP to tell them you are stupid..... and may as well suggest they are stupid too, just in case. 

???

[Nabby81]

12 hours ago, hi5lo5 said:

https://www.property118.com/philip-hammond-prepared-u-turn-now-put-pressure-reverse-section-24/95489/

Love it 

 

Did they miss the part where they was no mainstream outrage to section 24 when it was announced ?

 

[oatbake]

46 minutes ago, Nabby81 said:

Did they miss the part where they was no mainstream outrage to section 24 when it was announced ?

 

There is absolutely no chance of Section 24 being repealed now. Near enough two years have passed since it was proposed with barely a whimper. With rents failing for the first time in six years, tenants will be fine. With a £2bn hole to plug following the u-turn on NI, I'd be keeping a low profile if I were a landlord. The 20% tax relief that they still enjoy is probably looking very tasty to the treasury!

With the exception of a few landlords who will vote Tory anyway come the next election despite their protestations, the general public have been at worst indifferent towards S24 and it must've surely be a real moneyspinner for HMRC. It's staying.

The P118 crowd are still mostly in the first stage of loss: denial (e.g "this can't happen"). Some have moved into the second, anger stage hence the furious letter-writing. Still all very funny to the casual observer :-)

[jfk]

On 03/16/2017 at 10:43 AM, hi5lo5 said:

https://www.property118.com/philip-hammond-prepared-u-turn-now-put-pressure-reverse-section-24/95489/

Love it 

 

Comedy gold

[CunningPlan]

They have an idea of where the chancellor could get his money from rather than themselves:

Just stopping the diversion of overseas aid into corrupt Government coffers/corrupt Government officials/etc would easily save £2bn without hurting those that we want to help.

That's good. Remove clean water assistance from Africa so that we can keep our Range Rovers. Bound to be popular.

Or perhaps they think they are part of the overseas aid budget if they house immigrants?

[msi]

Quote

Just stopping the diversion of overseas aid into corrupt Government coffers/corrupt Government officials/etc would easily save £2bn without hurting those that we want to help farm.

 

[mrtickle]

2 hours ago, CunningPlan said:

They have an idea of where the chancellor could get his money from rather than themselves:

Just stopping the diversion of overseas aid into corrupt Government coffers/corrupt Government officials/etc would easily save £2bn without hurting those that we want to help.

That's good. Remove clean water assistance from Africa so that we can keep our Range Rovers. Bound to be popular.

Stunning. That's up there with the holocaust stuff 

[iamnumerate]

2 hours ago, CunningPlan said:

They have an idea of where the chancellor could get his money from rather than themselves:

Just stopping the diversion of overseas aid into corrupt Government coffers/corrupt Government officials/etc would easily save £2bn without hurting those that we want to help.

That's good. Remove clean water assistance from Africa so that we can keep our Range Rovers. Bound to be popular.

Or perhaps they think they are part of the overseas aid budget if they house immigrants?

Or we could remove it from countries like Pakistan where they put innocent people in prison.

[CunningPlan]

1 minute ago, iamnumerate said:

Or we could remove it from countries like Pakistan where they put innocent people in prison.

Stop being sensible and spoiling the fun 

[Lavalas]

On 25/12/2016 at 5:51 PM, Lavalas said:

Third verse, same as the first, a little bit louder and a ittle bit worse...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1347848465258154&id=1077700412272962

New plan for the 'Axe the Tenant Tax' coalition is to form an 'Axe the Tenant Tax' coalition and write to their MPs. I'm a tenant and I'll not stop until these people eat losses.

What's happened to the new plan? These goons are just not providing the fun anymore.

Where is the MPs dinner? Where is the tenant survey, the lender cooperation? I really hope they go ahead with the 'Tenant Tax awareness week'. I need some laughs whilst I wait for the tax.

[BorrowToLeech]

5 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Or we could remove it from countries like Pakistan where they put innocent people in prison.

Or, do both.  Then maybe we could afford to pay off some of the debt we built-up bailing out landlords?  

Just a thought.

 

 

 

[Barnsey]

'How do I evict my freeloading children from my buy-to-let property?'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ask-a-money-expert/do-evict-freeloading-children-buy-to-let-property/

Says it all...

Edited March 18, 2017 by Barnsey

[Ah-so]

2 hours ago, Barnsey said:

'How do I evict my freeloading children from my buy-to-let property?'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ask-a-money-expert/do-evict-freeloading-children-buy-to-let-property/

Says it all...

Freeloading clearly runs in the family. 

But it does seem like a good way of disinheriting yourself. 

[Venger]

5 hours ago, Ah-so said:

Freeloading clearly runs in the family. 

But it does seem like a good way of disinheriting yourself. 

It could be worth being disinherited with BTL parents and so many other BTLers   

Stick it to the man.  Let the BTLers fall, and make your own way.

Parents who seek to feast off their own children with housing/BTL.  Can you imagine paying up to your own parents like that, for their BTL?  It would rub for me. 

Serves the parents right.  That they would look to people-farm their own kids.

Elsewhere I have read about one girl who recoils from her parents multi BTL, and has long refused any money from them (although I think she finally capitulated, just before S24).   She could see the affect it was having on all their mid 20s renting friends in Cambridge.

All the BTLers seem to believe they're charging below market rates.

No formal tenancy agreement.  Tenants can meet changed circumstances too.

Amateur BTLers expecting professional tenants.

If all the parents had not bought BTL, then their kids far more likely to have been in a position to buy their own home at much lower prices.

 

On 1/12/2016 at 2:05 PM, Neverwhere said:

Individuals who would normally sell up, but who hold onto properties to let out instead, prevent the market from clearing and proper price discovery from occurring - thus significantly contributing to any problems attributable to high house prices - so it really depends on whether they would be inclined to sell into continued use by somebody else if they decided not to rent it out. Additionally, amateurs clearly often don't think that tenants should have any decent security of tenure and don't familiarise themselves with even current legislation so they obviously do undermine your legitimate concerns above. I don't really see how my argument is any more moralising than asserting, by implication, that amateur landlords generally aren't doing anything wrong and generally are doing a broadly good thing. All I am saying is that if they have no idea about the legal realities of what they have chosen to do of their own free will then that is also a choice on their part. They could have educated themselves. They didn't. They don't like the consequences of that. Oh well.

Quote

May 2015. A HPCer.

Did you not read all the shit those BTLer spivs posted? Their goal seems to be that landlords are treated liked amateurs with allowances made all the time and tenants are purely professional, never allowed any leeway.

I hope they all burn (metaphorically in a banking bonfire of the vanities)

On 1/13/2016 at 5:17 PM, Exiled Canadian said:

Tenants not paying is a form of bad debt risk - a risk faced by most businesses in the UK.

All this wailing and gnashing of teeth from Poverty999 - it's almost as if they're not proper business people. 

After all a proper business person performs in depth checks on people or businesses who are advanced credit, and bakes a provision for some defaulters into their projections when creating a business plan.

On 1/13/2016 at 7:44 AM, Neverwhere said:

This is the double standard the whole complaint against the tenant is based on. The landlord is acting for financial gain and so has more reason to act professionally than a tenant who is just trying to house themselves and is essentially a consumer of the asset that is being rented out to them. Amateur landlords who are aghast to find out that they have amateur tenants have not thought the situation through properly.

 

[Arpeggio]

3 minutes ago, Venger said:

Elsewhere I have read about one girl who recoils from her parents multi BTL, and has long refused any money from them (although I think she finally capitulated, just before S24).   She could see the affect it was having on all their mid 20s renting friends in Cambridge.

I sometimes worry that the offspring of HPI will think like their parents and not be bothered about social mobility or meritocracy because it wont affect them with inheritance. Hopefully more are like her.

[Venger]

6 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

I sometimes worry that the offspring of HPI will think like their parents and not be bothered about social mobility or meritocracy because it wont affect them with inheritance. Hopefully more are like her.

 

In this instance, the daughter seemed to recoil from her parents multiple BTL choices in housing financialistion.  

I too hope there are more like her.  I do have real optimism there.  There are some nice kids.   The hardships can bring out the best in people and offers me a glimpse of a far more positive future where there is less greed.   People satisfied with just having enough (1 house... shouldn't be a lot to ask for).

It is a brilliant read.  

For the (highly qualified) renting daughter's own position against her shocked BTL mother (100 properties before she began selling with concern about an S24 future), and then on the other side, with the BTL/HPI forever merchants.

2014 http://www.propertytribes.com/generation-rent-here-stay-that-bad-thing-t-12139-post-217260.html

Edited March 18, 2017 by Venger

[Lavalas]

Bit of an update on how well the campaign is doing at not getting anywhere...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1438193996223600&id=1077700412272962

Hardly worth reading really.

[Arpeggio]

1 hour ago, Venger said:

In this instance, the daughter seemed to recoil from her parents multiple BTL choices in housing financialistion.  

It is a brilliant read.  

For the (highly qualified) renting daughter's own position against her shocked BTL mother (100 properties before she began selling with concern about an S24 future), and then on the other side, with the BTL/HPI forever merchants.

2014 http://www.propertytribes.com/generation-rent-here-stay-that-bad-thing-t-12139-post-217260.html

Interesting thread. The mother seems a sociopath when reading between the lines. A few snippets of what I noticed:

"She earns a modest amount (but has a 1st class honours degree in Chemistry) and he's a PhD student, so they would still struggle to buy and would have to tighten their belts and continue saving first. (We have offered more money but she refuses it!)"

A normal mum who isn't a LL / BTL and offered the money would be incredibly proud. Reading her posts she has not mentioned anything of the sort, mostly how confused she is that her children aren't like her.

"The way I deal with it is to think how I reacted to my parents at that age - for example, they were keen Catholics but in my teenage years I decided that religion wasn't for me"

When taking up religion, often it is what you give in your time and dedication and there are usually no financial benefits. The mothers comparison of her own past choices is made even more irrelevant by the fact that her daughter, in rejecting money from rent seeking behavior, is virtuous regardless of religion.

"Maybe our kids might see life differently if we'd lived a millionaire lifestyle"

Usually, parents raise human children.

1 hour ago, Venger said:

I too hope there are more like her.  I do have real optimism there.  There are some nice kids.   The hardships can bring out the best in people and offers me a glimpse of a far more positive future where there is less greed.   People satisfied with just having enough (1 house... shouldn't be a lot to ask for).

Agree. That reminds me of what some home owning / multi home owning Boomers / LL's say: "Nobody has a right to a house". Right's don't exist from scratch, they are a construct of what kind of society we want to live in and that is the kind of society this shrinking minority, who don't represent society, want to live in.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Arpeggio