miggy Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Darby Ram said: Brutal takedown of Bancor for anyone interested. http://hackingdistributed.com/2017/06/19/bancor-is-flawed/ (I doubt the price of this one is going to hold up, given the scrutiny it's coming under. It seems like it's better to invest in vapourware - e.g., Golem, Gnosis - than in projects with actual publicly available code .) Golem had plenty of code available well before the crowdsale. Gnosis also have code available although I don't know the full extent. Bancor actually had very little code available. 1 hour ago, Frugal Git said: Its a really interesting question - i was pondering too. I have never switched to any form of fiat in any of my trades (although the effective values have been quite small and nowhere near a cgt problem). My gut feeling is that whatever you initially bought the coins for (assuming you bought them and didn't mine them) is the starting point, and the difference between that and the final fiat value is what the tax man would look at. I'm prepared for this to all change but the advice I was given was as above. Also note that as soon as you use your cryptocurrency for real world purposes you must declare it, as you must also if you get paid in cryptocurrency. Companies like Xapo allow a full transaction export for these purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 10 hours ago, Habeas Domus said: A big part of the appeal of bitcoin is the complete anonymity. Once you force all the exchanges to collect ID and report income for tax purposes this has the side effect of making the blockchain into a public record of every transaction you have ever made. Just do bitcoin -> monero -> bitcoin and viola, you now have bitcoin at an untraceable address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honkydonkey Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 So £5's worth of bitshares I bought 2 years ago are now worth $1000 and it seems I've lost my wallet, and hence the money. LOL Oh well, such is life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Denninger of the Market-Ticker doesn't like Bitcoin or any of the 'digital currencies'. To put it mildly! I'm not passing any comment, just posting it here. Digital 'Currencies' Are ALL A Scam https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=232141 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, Errol said: Denninger of the Market-Ticker doesn't like Bitcoin or any of the 'digital currencies'. To put it mildly! I'm not passing any comment, just posting it here. Digital 'Currencies' Are ALL A Scam https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=232141 I didn't read the whole article as there were so many refutable points in the first couple of paragraphs. A currency relies on network effects so although a infinite amount of competing protocols can be created all value will gravitate towards a few dominant ones. His argument on deflationary equals less people able to use is not true related to digital currencies as they are infinitely divisible. The whole world could transact using a single bitcoin. It is deflationary in te sense that more people can use it without having to dilute hloders. I am sure there are may other points that can be as easily knocked down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy74 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, Errol said: Denninger of the Market-Ticker doesn't like Bitcoin or any of the 'digital currencies'. To put it mildly! I'm not passing any comment, just posting it here. Digital 'Currencies' Are ALL A Scam https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=232141 Pretty bad article. Incorrect in almost every aspect. From mining always increasing in difficulty (no, it adapts to computing power), to exchanges not having a business model (isn't a fee when transferring between fiat a good model, like coinbase does?) And I don't agree with the point about deflation leading to valueless. If we couldn't mine any more gold I doubt it would end up valueless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elative Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I have a couple of doubts when it comes to cryptocurrencies 1) the supply is limited but the number of cryptocurrencies isn't 2) they can be regulated at any moment in time in a way which could wipe most of their value 3) (although those into them seem to ignore it) they rely on internet connection and computers, unlike PMs and fiat moneyz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katchytitle Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Elative said: I have a couple of doubts when it comes to cryptocurrencies 1) the supply is limited but the number of cryptocurrencies isn't 2) they can be regulated at any moment in time in a way which could wipe most of their value 3) (although those into them seem to ignore it) they rely on internet connection and computers, unlike PMs and fiat moneyz. It seems there are several variations of interest in the currency/technology 1. The people who see the end of the world in diluted paper money (i.e Roman currency collapse ) and are moving to anything for a store of value (same as all those buried pots of gold people find from Roman times - its an age old problem when people devalue currencies) 2. People believe applications will run on public blockchain networks and they will be rewarded (by receiving coins) for validating the transaction on the blockchain 3. People who value the underlying tech - blockchain, the creation of private block chains are essentially distributed database network nodes which can validate anything with ultimate security (so far untested!). It is the equivalent of the invention of the database. Useful theoretically, but until Oracle came along and built a business it was on the margins of academia as a nice idea. 4. Hangers on who ride momentum but don't care about anything except that other people care about crypto Like anything new, there is always a cambrian explosion of new uses for a particular technology, then as time progresses, one or two move up to the next level and take all market share.Its either a new way of transferring value e.g cryptocurrency OR its just a new way of confirming trust in transactions. Either way, people believe the coins are worth something so they are - much like paper currency is. Do you believe the USD will grow enough to overcome its deficit drag? warren buffett does, if you do then the debt is irrelevant and USD will continue based on the ingenuity of its people to produce something the world needs. Ultimately the value of anything is dependent on its usage amongst the community. The use cases are clearly still forming. It seems similar to the internet in that regard. In 1989 who thought you'd have Netflix on the ARPANet? Same applies here, new use cases which add value will be created. Whomever gets the widest number of smart developers will win this battle. As consumers, you'll either back VHS or Betamax! Edited June 20, 2017 by katchytitle edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 IOTA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honkydonkey Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 The main reason I don't like crypto currencies is because it's a tremendous waste of computer resources. I mean what does crunching a meaningless algorithm achieve in the long run? It doesn't make sense to waste all that power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2buyornot2buy Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, honkydonkey said: The main reason I don't like crypto currencies is because it's a tremendous waste of computer resources. I mean what does crunching a meaningless algorithm achieve in the long run? It doesn't make sense to waste all that power. That's the point though. You need the power to create the security and ultimate trust that it can't be rehashed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 15 minutes ago, honkydonkey said: The main reason I don't like crypto currencies is because it's a tremendous waste of computer resources. I mean what does crunching a meaningless algorithm achieve in the long run? It doesn't make sense to waste all that power. Yes I much prefer having my savings in a medium that can be inflated at will by a central authority directly stealing from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 28 minutes ago, doomed said: Yes I much prefer having my savings in a medium that can be inflated at will by a central authority directly stealing from me. Which are currently losing value at a rate of 5% per annum. Is it any wonder that digital assets (which required no vaults or safes) are rising at 5% per day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggy Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Honky: there are alternatives to proof of work which need a while lot less energy usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 19 minutes ago, miggy said: Honky: there are alternatives to proof of work which need a while lot less energy usage. That are still to be proven to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 On 19/06/2017 at 7:46 PM, GreenDevil said: They can only tax cash ££. Hence why they dont like it. If you can purchase in bitcoin, there is no reason to realise any gains in toilet paper £. Why would you purchase in bitcoin when the value will be more tomorrow? You wouldn't, and people don't (mostly). Hence it isn't a currency, it doesn't serve a purpose other than a speculative hedge against fiat. But any crypto currency can do that and there are an infinite number of crypto currencies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 ^ This is the elephant in the room. 99.99% of the people involved in bitcoin are just speculating for a capital gain, nobody is buying and selling real assets with it - the emperor has no clothes. They need to get transactions down to <2 seconds and they need an ability to scale to millions or billions of transactions per minute. I just don't see that happening with a huge ever growing block chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 ∆∆ Bitcoin is the gold. Segwit 2x approved now, looking for a blast off. An alternative coin will fill the gap, litecoin ? I have a sizable chunk... Litegold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkmarket Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 34 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said: ^ This is the elephant in the room. 99.99% of the people involved in bitcoin are just speculating for a capital gain, nobody is buying and selling real assets with it - the emperor has no clothes. This has already been the subject of a lot of discussion and it's not a cause of concern at the moment. There's a tension between two of the uses commonly required of money: as a store of value and as a medium of exchange. You're suggesting that because bitcoin currently works too well as the former that it doesn't work well as the latter. The entire scaling debate, incidentally, is based on the opposite assumption of transaction demand. Regardless, it's expected to behave in this way in the earlier stages and as volatility gradually falls away so too is the disparity you mention expected to diminish. 41 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said: They need to get transactions down to <2 seconds and they need an ability to scale to millions or billions of transactions per minute. I just don't see that happening with a huge ever growing block chain. These kinds of transaction throughputs can be handled in theory by lightning networks, and testing is successfully underway. That'll move almost all the coffee transaction data off the blockchain, and contribute to the medium of exchange function mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 58 minutes ago, dugsbody said: Why would you purchase in bitcoin when the value will be more tomorrow? You wouldn't, and people don't (mostly). Hence it isn't a currency, it doesn't serve a purpose other than a speculative hedge against fiat. But any crypto currency can do that and there are an infinite number of crypto currencies... Why would you buy a mobile phone when you could buy it in 6 months for half the price? We survived on the gold standard far longer than our current money as debt approach will last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrufeshanul Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 9 hours ago, dugsbody said: Why would you purchase in bitcoin when the value will be more tomorrow? You wouldn't, and people don't (mostly). Hence it isn't a currency, it doesn't serve a purpose other than a speculative hedge against fiat. But any crypto currency can do that and there are an infinite number of crypto currencies... True but what makes you think you will pick the one that increases in value? Bitcoin has the best record so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I see bitcoin and gold as being complementary. They aren't competing. Gold will always be gold and will be moving towards re-integration in financial systems (trade notes, silk road etc) in the near future. Both bitcoin and gold are ultimately disruptors of the system that Governments would like us to stay within. The more disruptors the better, as far as I'm concerned. That said, I certainly feel that gold will remain the ultimate money in extremis e.g. times of war, trade between nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, doomed said: Why would you buy a mobile phone when you could buy it in 6 months for half the price? Exactly, this inflationist mantra that noone buys anything when prices are falling is complete nonsense, if this were true noone would ever buy any electronic gadgetry. In fact its economically beneficial because people buy for utility and not for investment. Edited June 21, 2017 by goldbug9999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, goldbug9999 said: Exactly, this inflationist mantra that noone buys anything when prices are falling is complete nonsense, if this were true noone would ever buy any electronic gadgetry. In fact its economically beneficial because people buy for utility and not for investment. That isn't what I'm saying at all, and I'm surprised you both find it so easy to miss the point, particularly since the evidence shows my point is correct. People don't use bitcoin as a currency because it will be "worth more tomorrow". You ultimately believe this and I'd ask how many people on here are holders and how many are users. My bet is 99% of you, 99% of the time don't transact in bitcoin, you hoard it. And why will it be worth more tomorrow? Because there will be someone willing to buy it for more. And why would they buy it for more? Because they believe it'll be worth more tomorrow. And repeat. And why bitcoin, out of the infinite number of crypto currencies? Well, because it got their first. Just got to hope that sentiment holds until you can get out and get back to spending with real money. Edited June 21, 2017 by dugsbody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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