Brexit vote again

[AThirdWay]

54 minutes ago, lostinlondon said:

Brexit was never allowed to succeed.

 

If only someone had predicted this prior to the vote .... Oh, wait...

[whitemice]

4 hours ago, scottbeard said:

Turnout of 72% was higher than every general election since 1992, and higher than several general elections before that. Also how does happy with status quo result in don't vote? It results in vote remain.

The UK public are, within the margin of error, evenly split between Leave, Remain and Don’t care.

1 hour ago, lostinlondon said:

Brexit was never allowed to succeed.

Brexiters never had a plan, just a list of grievances.

Now their grievance is that their non-plan didn’t work. 🤦‍♂️

[Fromage Frais]

I was neutral about it all but I was sure that leave would win given that remain chose to go down the insults and fear route instead of the love route like the Canadians did in their referendum.  

I know it has been years but with Covid in the middle it has now almost become impossible to draw a conclusion.

At the time I was more inclined to go down the Norway EFTA route so we could start to enforce immigration and keep it to workers only.....

But in hindsight I was wrong it always had to be leave just look at the conservatives and Sunak they will do anything possible to avoid doing what was asked of them they are utterly addicted to covering up the economies issues with more bodies whatever the cost.

Just now mere months from oblivion having had a massive majority and they still have not done enough they cannot even kick criminals out and start the blame shit with the legal system and public servants.  Just imagine the EU to blame nothing would ever be done.  Labour will be the same once they realise that they have not been voted on for policy... just they are not the conservatives the public will keep changing until something gets done.

The beauty of Brexit was it was always going to be a bit shit during the transition years as there is a reason why the government would rather see society collapse than stop immigration as whats good for GDP is not good for citizens/gdp per cap long term.  

In principle I should be pro EU I like free trade and I like that you can work in different counties and experience life around this wonderful continent......but those days are gone.  Nearly all the western EU counties have a toxic immigration problem and until that is resolved its just unfeasible to consider re entry.
 

1. There are huge numbers of people needing deporting in Western Europe.
2. Those countries are going to go right wing fast.
3. potentially millions of people are going to be displaced
4. freedom of movement will see many seek to come here and we wont be able to do anything about it.

Once when that process has run its course the EU can be trimmed down into EEA only with only what is needed to facilitate trade and relations between states and a free movement area for people with job offers and no need to claim benefits or having committed crimes.

[Fromage Frais]

7 hours ago, winkie said:

A lot of people were deluded over Brexit, much confusion, different people wanted different things, most got none of it, many didn't bother to vote low turnout because happy with status quo, they were also told remain would easily win.......certain big powers would love to break up the EU.....divide and rule or conquer.....plan?

Maybe but they are but insects compared the incredible big powers that tried to get everyone to remain.

I actually thought that leave where going to romp home the result being what it was told me that many bottled it at the end under pressure.

[Social Justice League]

3 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

Maybe but they are but insects compared the incredible big powers that tried to get everyone to remain.

Lol, insects.... 😀  How true.

[Fromage Frais]

7 hours ago, scottbeard said:

I hate the idea of free movement of people, but it was pretty much the only thing I hated about the EU so I voted remain on balance.

still feel similarly 

I don’t personally see Brexit as a disaster though - I see it as entirely what you’d expect: a massive loss of economic benefit in exchange for more sovereignty.  That’s the choice I thought we were being offered.  Anyone who thought it was ever going to be an economic BENEFIT was deluded 

This

It's now 2024 and I find it a bit weird that we are what seems like a session after a pandemic and war in Europe a classic 8 year recession even if not for those factors...... and its Brexit.

There is a reason why the government was desperate to stay in and keep the bodies coming in and when told not to carried on anyhow.

We are in a debt Ponzi scheme.... we are all expected to have less gap per capita, less QOL more crime, less facilities and more tax....... so the debt / person is better.

If they had not gone down this road, even if the EU had done a deal with Cameron.... Brexit would not even have happened.

 

[Dyson Fury]

8 hours ago, scottbeard said:

I hate the idea of free movement of people, but it was pretty much the only thing I hated about the EU so I voted remain on balance.

still feel similarly 

I don’t personally see Brexit as a disaster though - I see it as entirely what you’d expect: a massive loss of economic benefit in exchange for more sovereignty.  That’s the choice I thought we were being offered.  Anyone who thought it was ever going to be an economic BENEFIT was deluded 

Fixed that for you 😈

Edited April 22 by The Moderators

[Dyson Fury]

1 hour ago, Fromage Frais said:

In principle I should be pro EU I like free trade

But this is a key point that so many people fail to understand.  The Single Market may give the illusion of "free trade", but in practice it is anything but.  Trade among the member countries, but behind high tariff and non-tariff walls erected against trade with the rest of the world.  Just one minor example: bananas (straight or curved, it does not matter here).  Restrictions on the import of bananas from Central America and the Caribbean, to protect the banana growers of southern Europe whose crop yields are lower and their prices higher.  A trade barrier of no benefit whatever to the UK, where bananas are not grown, but harming Commonwealth nations in the West Indies.

[Orb]

12 hours ago, Social Justice League said:

If we keep Brexit but get some kind of free movement deal, I think most would be reasonably happy with that as it makes it much easier to leave the UK if needed.

Stopping freedom of movement (and thus mass immigration from Eastern Europe) was one of the top, if not the top reason people voted for Brexit. 

[debtlessmanc]

3 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

I was neutral about it all but I was sure that leave would win given that remain chose to go down the insults and fear route instead of the love route like the Canadians did in their referendum.  

I know it has been years but with Covid in the middle it has now almost become impossible to draw a conclusion.

At the time I was more inclined to go down the Norway EFTA route so we could start to enforce immigration and keep it to workers only.....

But in hindsight I was wrong it always had to be leave just look at the conservatives and Sunak they will do anything possible to avoid doing what was asked of them they are utterly addicted to covering up the economies issues with more bodies whatever the cost.

Just now mere months from oblivion having had a massive majority and they still have not done enough they cannot even kick criminals out and start the blame shit with the legal system and public servants.  Just imagine the EU to blame nothing would ever be done.  Labour will be the same once they realise that they have not been voted on for policy... just they are not the conservatives the public will keep changing until something gets done.

The beauty of Brexit was it was always going to be a bit shit during the transition years as there is a reason why the government would rather see society collapse than stop immigration as whats good for GDP is not good for citizens/gdp per cap long term.  

In principle I should be pro EU I like free trade and I like that you can work in different counties and experience life around this wonderful continent......but those days are gone.  Nearly all the western EU counties have a toxic immigration problem and until that is resolved its just unfeasible to consider re entry.
 

1. There are huge numbers of people needing deporting in Western Europe.
2. Those countries are going to go right wing fast.
3. potentially millions of people are going to be displaced
4. freedom of movement will see many seek to come here and we wont be able to do anything about it.

Once when that process has run its course the EU can be trimmed down into EEA only with only what is needed to facilitate trade and relations between states and a free movement area for people with job offers and no need to claim benefits or having committed crimes.

One thing that is rarely mentioned is the huge amount of secondary migration to the U.K. by refugees who got asylum in other EU states (at least 500k apparently by 2015) they moved to the U.K. as we speak English are less racist than some and do not redistribute people from their communities ). This was never going to end. Germany has started giving citizenship to the 1-2m Syrians it has taken in (half of whom are unemployed) How many of them would move to the uk? The UKs population is to big already for its resources.

its tellling that two states which often gave refugee status to people who the moved to the U.K. , (Netherlands and Portugal) are seeing protest about migration and over population now we have left.

Edited April 22 by debtlessmanc

[Huggy]

2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

its tellling that two states which often gave refugee status to people who the moved to the U.K. , (Netherlands and Portugal) are seeing protest about migration and over population now we have left.

Funny how arriving via rubber boats became more popular right around the time we actually left too. Obviously open doors are an easier method of entry to most places, that's how I get into most places I want to go in fact, rather than risk an overcrowded dinghy.

[Fromage Frais]

16 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

One thing that is rarely mentioned is the huge amount of secondary migration to the U.K. by refugees who got asylum in other EU states (at least 500k apparently by 2015) they moved to the U.K. as we speak English are less racist than some and do not redistribute people from their communities ). This was never going to end. Germany has started giving citizenship to the 1-2m Syrians it has taken in (half of whom are unemployed) How many of them would move to the uk? The UKs population is to big already for its resources.

its tellling that two states which often gave refugee status to people who the moved to the U.K. , (Netherlands and Portugal) are seeing protest about migration and over population now we have left.

Its logical.

I know a couple of families who left Denmark.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/06/denmarks-immigrants-forced-out-government-policies

Rwanda again they must be coining it in.

"Under the new law, proposed by Social Democratic prime minister Mette Frederiksen and comfortably passed by Denmark’s parliament the Folketing in a vote of 70 to 24, asylum seekers would be flown to a faraway third country regardless of where they are from – with one option appearing to be Rwanda which signed a diplomatic agreement in March with Denmark leading to speculation it intends to open an asylum processing facility there."

"Only 1,547 people applied for asylum in Denmark in 2020, a 57 per cent drop on the previous year and the lowest number since the 1990s, but Frederiksen says she wants to reduce the number of asylum applications to zero."

for reference

There were 67,337 asylum applications (relating to 84,425 people) in the UK in the year ending December 2023, a 17% decrease from the previous 12 months.

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/information/refugee-asylum-facts/top-10-facts-about-refugees-and-people-seeking-asylum/#:~:text=There were 67%2C337 asylum applications,from the previous 12 months.

Denmark population 6 million and lets say 2000 applications = 333 applications per million

UK population 67 million and 68000 applications = 4556 applications per million.... and you cannot walk here from the EU

So is that 10/13 times more applications.

How does one compete with that additional cost and pressure?  No wonder Denmark is the 2nd happiest place to live with all that money saved compared to the UK, Germany and France.
 

 

[Fromage Frais]

13 hours ago, Huggy said:

Funny how arriving via rubber boats became more popular right around the time we actually left too. Obviously open doors are an easier method of entry to most places, that's how I get into most places I want to go in fact, rather than risk an overcrowded dinghy.

Posted it many times before.

The number of folks outside the asylum and visa system is much larger than most think.

Many relatives visit and do not go back maybe they get caught and processed but often not.

I am not for a Digital currency but if they made it so you needed a NI number or right to work..... you would see carnage in big cities and any town with cash businesses.

Our black economy is massive and the dinghy system a conveyor.  Need some enforcers to hold down that new turf you just took over a quick call to Tirana and over they come do not register to asylum run into the cars waiting.  

This is Norfolk a very rural county mostly white folks and all in the last couple of years.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/24171170.raj-loddon-faces-closure-immigration-raid/

This one he paid the workers in food ffs if I did that straight to jail modern slavery etc

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23777422.home-office-raid-indiagate-tandoori-resturant-beccles/

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23814182.no-action-home-office-raid-lowestoft-tandoori/

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23866425.spice-inn-kings-lynn-close-illegal-workers/

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23774297.bunwell-village-store-arrest-immigration-raid/

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/20781752.illegal-workers-detained-following-immigration-raid-indian-restaurant/

 

Edited April 23 by Fromage Frais

[scottbeard]

On 22/04/2024 at 10:37, AThirdWay said:

I'm still not sure where the positive results of this increased sovereignty are to be seen, or indeed, what you would consider to BE a positive result?

You'd probably have to ask a Leave voter that, but I think it's too early to tell: I liken Brexit to a divorce - day 1 after the divorce you find yourself in a complete financial mess, with no cash, no house, half your possessions gone and a messy childcare arrangement.  But you don't find many people saying 20 years later "I really wish I was still with that Ex".  You pay a financial price for freedom, but the price is paid upfront and the benefits gradually increase over time.  Equally, some people who split up get back together.  Maybe we will rejoin.

On 22/04/2024 at 11:00, dugsbody said:

We have free movement of people in the four nations of the union of the United Kingdom. Why do you think people from Wales shouldn't be allowed to move freely inside the union?

Sigh.  You really want me to go here don't you.  Fine. 

Before the EU expansion in the early 2000s freedom of movement of people was something no one even thought about.  Why?  Because so little of it happened.

Free of movement of people broke down when much poorer Eastern European countries were allowed into the union, and started migrating here in disruptively large numbers.

Free movement between UK nations is fine because, like EU migration pre-2002, the numbers are small enough to manage and go both ways.  It never happens that 1 million Welsh people suddenly move to England in a year.

The EU needed to EITHER stay tight group of relatively wealthy countries OR expand and become a looser group of more countries and abandon free movement.

BUT I still voted Remain because there's more to life than just immigration.

Edited April 23 by scottbeard

[Huggy]

24 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

I liken Brexit to a divorce - day 1 after the divorce you find yourself in a complete financial mess, with no cash, no house, half your possessions gone and a messy childcare arrangement.  But you don't find many people saying 20 years later "I really wish I was still with that Ex".  You pay a financial price for freedom, but the price is paid upfront and the benefits gradually increase over time.  Equally, some people who split up get back together.  Maybe we will rejoin.

Excellent analogy. I have previously likened it to equity investments, including how bizarre the demands for instant returns were, but that's because I'm a bit of a corporate whore sometimes with those.

The divorce comparison adds a touch of humanity to it, and I remember with fondness all the trade deals I completed in the weeks after my withdrawal ☺️

[PeanutButter]

I’m really more interested in whether people can change their minds with lived experience. That’s why I asked.

[dugsbody]

7 hours ago, scottbeard said:

I liken Brexit to a divorce - day 1 after the divorce you find yourself in a complete financial mess, with no cash, no house, half your possessions gone and a messy childcare arrangement.  But you don't find many people saying 20 years later "I really wish I was still with that Ex".  You pay a financial price for freedom, but the price is paid upfront and the benefits gradually increase over time.  Equally, some people who split up get back together.  Maybe we will rejoin.

If I had to use the divorce analogy it would be this:

There is an abusive partner who blames the other partner for everything he does wrong. He goes round telling everyone who will listen, loudly, how sh1t his wife is, and swears that he can do so much better, people will pay him to marry him. He then files for divorce, demands as part of the divorce settlement he can continue to have sex with her when he likes, complains to everyone, loudly, again about how unreasonable she is when she doesn't agree to this. Eventually they do divorce, and she goes on her way, while he still stomps around loudly claiming how shit she is and everything is still her fault. His "friends" say they will listen to him as long as he continues to buy the beers every night. The end.

[Huggy]

57 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

There is an abusive partner who blames the other partner for everything he does wrong.

57 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

He goes round telling everyone who will listen, loudly, how sh1t his wife is

57 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

while he still stomps around loudly claiming how shit she is and everything is still her fault.

Remind you of any group in a massive Remain circle-jerk thread not a million miles away from this?

[scottbeard]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

There is an abusive partner who blames the other partner for everything he does wrong. He goes round telling everyone who will listen, loudly, how sh1t his wife is, and swears that he can do so much better, people will pay him to marry him. He then files for divorce, demands as part of the divorce settlement he can continue to have sex with her when he likes, complains to everyone, loudly, again about how unreasonable she is when she doesn't agree to this. Eventually they do divorce, and she goes on her way, while he still stomps around loudly claiming how shit she is and everything is still her fault. His "friends" say they will listen to him as long as he continues to buy the beers every night. The end.

Even in that scenario the partner and the ex will both likely be happier 20 years from now apart than together though, won't they?  Even if that's because by leaving the partner may gradually realise that not everything was her fault after all.

[Confusion of VIs]

On 22/04/2024 at 08:52, scottbeard said:

I hate the idea of free movement of people, but it was pretty much the only thing I hated about the EU so I voted remain on balance.

still feel similarly 

I don’t personally see Brexit as a disaster though - I see it as entirely what you’d expect: a massive loss of economic benefit in exchange for more sovereignty.  That’s the choice I thought we were being offered.  Anyone who thought it was ever going to be an economic BENEFIT was deluded 

Anyone who thought it would enhance our sovereignty was equally deluded.

Being forced by economic realities to follow EU rules we no longer have a say in setting and no longer being the English speaking gateway into Europe has diminished our sovereignty. We will be in the same position if we want meaningful trade deals with any of the other major trade powers.