The middle class is dying in the UK

[scottbeard]

5 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

Orchestral musician simply can’t be a full time job. Even if you’re back to back with bookings, there’s no way anyone wakes up at 7am to start playing an instrument for the next 8 hours with a 1 hour break for lunch.

This says 20hr working pw.

 

This is a very narrow and - I’m going to  say it - working class view of what a full time job looks like.

Most “performance” jobs, whether that’s music, theatre or sport will only ever result in a short period each day “on stage”.  And yes even as you say including training/rehearsing it is unlikely to amount to 40 hours of actual “doing your job”. But many of these involve very unsocial evening working hours, lots of travelling etc 

So does a premier league footballer work 40 hours a week on a football pitch or an actor 40 hours on stage? No. But it’s still a full time job - there is neither time nor need for another.

 

[Si1]

7 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

This is a very narrow and - I’m going to  say it - working class view of what a full time job looks like.

Most “performance” jobs, whether that’s music, theatre or sport will only ever result in a short period each day “on stage”.  And yes even as you say including training/rehearsing it is unlikely to amount to 40 hours of actual “doing your job”. But many of these involve very unsocial evening working hours, lots of travelling etc 

So does a premier league footballer work 40 hours a week on a football pitch or an actor 40 hours on stage? No. But it’s still a full time job - there is neither time nor need for another.

 

+1

Being a musician is a vocation and requires maintaining a very high level of technical skill. Private practicing at least 2 hours a day, unpaid.

[Big Orange]

10 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said:

It's funny because if/when the masses lose disposable income they no longer can afford to pay for subscription services, new cars, expensive holidays and so on.

Therefore, companies that the ultra rich get their incomes from that are all connected to discretionary income includes commercial property, restaurant chains, designer clothing, beverage companies, airline companies, hotel services & car manufactures etc.

The share prices of all these companies are going to hit the floor and wealth evaporates overnight.

This is what I find personally amusing but seems to be lost on the very wealthy in society that are trying to hold on to what they have via greed and parasitical policies.

Back in the wake of the 2007/2008 Great Recession, a 13 year old teenager could've figured most of that out if the lower middle and upper working class got socio-economically wiped out by the ultra elites, with fewer means to access services, purchase products, or even no access to a relatively comfortable, semi-permanent location to sleep at (but they're obviously too high functioning or borderline psychopathic to properly comprehend that until it's too late).

Edited April 1 by Big Orange

[Blobsy]

Seems to be part of the human condition that greed overrides any ability to see this connection regardless of IQ.

[spyguy]

5 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

The problem for the teachers- they teach in private schools no PGCEs and they are worrried about starmer and his VAT. They might have to change careers.

 

Even if the politics of envy don't do for them, then the TPS pension contributions will.

Slowly but surely the combined TPS contribution is going to 40%. Private - and public schools are arguing the employer/employee split.

 

[spyguy]

On 30/03/2024 at 22:16, scottbeard said:

But that just ignores the whole point of the distinction:

Working class - have to work, and still struggle to get by

Middle class - have to work, but have a comfortable lifestyle

Upper class - don't have to work, but still have a comfortable lifestyle

It has always been part of the fabric of the definition of middle class that they have to work.  That is what sets them apart from the upper class.  But it also part of the fabric of the definition of middle class that they have a comfortable life: houses, pensions, holidays etc.  If you are working and still struggling you are not middle class.

I think people - and the media - are apply US terms to the remains of the UK class system.

In the US you were middle class if you've a salary and healthcare.

In the UK it used to mean a professional I,e protected job - Dr, Lawyer, teacher.

The rise of finance, then technical jobs outside of law n the public sector, put peoples noses out in terms of social standing and earnings.

 

[debtlessmanc]

49 minutes ago, Si1 said:

The knucklehead humanities grads in management didn't like the idea of "breaking the pay structure" for him which would have meant him earning twice what a poxy English teacher would

A similar thing happens with consultancy in unis. I have known people being told they cannot continue getting consultant as it means they will earn more than senior management. The uni centrally gets a cut so they are turning down money into the uni coffers out of envy.

[Big Orange]

18 minutes ago, Blobsy said:

Seems to be part of the human condition that greed overrides any ability to see this connection regardless of IQ.

Also extreme power and wealth creates an almost impregnable, isolating barrier that delays or mitigates the self-harm to the political/CEO/aristocratic type individuals after they gravely harmed everybody else with their short-sighted, petulant decisions.

[PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

This is a very narrow and - I’m going to  say it - working class view of what a full time job looks like.

Most “performance” jobs, whether that’s music, theatre or sport will only ever result in a short period each day “on stage”.  And yes even as you say including training/rehearsing it is unlikely to amount to 40 hours of actual “doing your job”. But many of these involve very unsocial evening working hours, lots of travelling etc 

So does a premier league footballer work 40 hours a week on a football pitch or an actor 40 hours on stage? No. But it’s still a full time job - there is neither time nor need for another.

 

Yeah I’m working class lol, it’s not an insult to me. I’m not a social climber.

Concert Musician: oh no, I’m paid too low for the 20 hours of work I do each week, in a job that requires much training, and time away from home.

Firefighter: hold my non-alcoholic beer while I tell you about the 3 jobs I have.

 

All the actors I’ve met have had multiple jobs to supplement their arts work. Football isn’t a comparator because in this country it’s a religion. For sports it’s fairer to use a B grade sport like field hockey or badminton as comparators - and how many people in UK can have a professional ft career in those? 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/playing-for-peanuts-325601.html#

Orchestral players are finding it increasingly hard to make ends meet. A rank-and-file player can earn up to £40,000 per annum in the London Symphony Orchestra, but the equivalent post in the London Philharmonic and Philharmonia orchestras is unlikely to be more than £30,000 - in the North it's nearer £25,000.

 

 

[jonb2]

3 hours ago, Big Orange said:

Back in the wake of the 2007/2008 Great Recession, a 13 year old teenager could've figured most of that out if the lower middle and upper working class got socio-economically wiped out by the ultra elites, with fewer means to access services, purchase products, or even no access to a relatively comfortable, semi-permanent location to sleep at (but they're obviously too high functioning or borderline psychopathic to properly comprehend that until it's too late).

Exactly. A heist of trillions. Anybody who doesn't attribute all our problems to the super-wealthy needs a brain transplant.

[Big Orange]

1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

Exactly. A heist of trillions. Anybody who doesn't attribute all our problems to the super-wealthy needs a brain transplant.

Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Jeffry Bezos developed cults of personality in recent decades and have online sycophants....

[Blobsy]

4 hours ago, Si1 said:

+1

Being a musician is a vocation and requires maintaining a very high level of technical skill. Private practicing at least 2 hours a day, unpaid.

The way I see it is the onstage/playing bit is the fun part, what I‘m being paid for is the travelling/waiting around/years spent in a practice room woodshedding for £0.
Then, if touring work then long hours spent in the company of others (even if close friends can be taxing), unhealthy sleep, unhealthy diet, generally not being in your regular home routine. 

Then there’s all the @ssholes you have to deal with promoters, managers, booking agents all creaming off.

Why even bother you may ask? 
Because when you are part of a great gig with a great band and a great audience there’s nothing quite like it.

 

[Nick Cash]

2 minutes ago, Blobsy said:

The way I see it is the onstage/playing bit is the fun part, what I‘m being paid for is the travelling/waiting around/years spent in a practice room woodshedding for £0.
Then, if touring work then long hours spent in the company of others (even if close friends can be taxing), unhealthy sleep, unhealthy diet, generally not being in your regular home routine. 

Then there’s all the @ssholes you have to deal with promoters, managers, booking agents all creaming off.

Why even bother you may ask? 
Because when you are part of a great gig with a great band and a great audience there’s nothing quite like it.

 

Brilliant. I love live music. Always have always will. 

[PeanutButter]

48 minutes ago, Blobsy said:

The way I see it is the onstage/playing bit is the fun part, what I‘m being paid for is the travelling/waiting around/years spent in a practice room woodshedding for £0.
Then, if touring work then long hours spent in the company of others (even if close friends can be taxing), unhealthy sleep, unhealthy diet, generally not being in your regular home routine. 

Then there’s all the @ssholes you have to deal with promoters, managers, booking agents all creaming off.

Why even bother you may ask? 
Because when you are part of a great gig with a great band and a great audience there’s nothing quite like it.

 

How are your earnings? 

[Blobsy]

1 minute ago, PeanutButter said:

How are your earnings? 

I can’t complain but I realise I earn more than most in my field, down to a mixture of hard graft and dumb luck.

[Lagarde's Drift]

5 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

A similar thing happens with consultancy in unis. I have known people being told they cannot continue getting consultant as it means they will earn more than senior management. The uni centrally gets a cut so they are turning down money into the uni coffers out of envy.

It's not necessarily envy. It's management group think where there is strict adherence to a system of value rather than following the market or good business instinct.

[Si1]

1 minute ago, Lagarde's Drift said:

It's not necessarily envy. It's management group think where there is strict adherence to a system of value rather than following the market or good business instinct.

There may be groupthink but there are also plain old fashioned @ssholes ime.

[Will!]

 

[IfWeWereVampires]

On 3/31/2024 at 10:01 AM, Stewy said:

I went for a nice meal with 9 of us across three generations this weekend (ages 5 to 72). Previously everyone would have chipped in their £50-£100.

Bit harsh on the 5-year-old

 

[NoHPCinTheUK]

Couple of weeks ago, after another attempt from a recruiter who was trying to sell me another job paying 10k more of what I am making now, I told him to not even bother calling me again if the role doesn’t pay more than 90k. 
 

I don’t care if you don’t have these roles or if you think I am not qualified for them. This is what I need to make now here in London. 
 Quite frankly if firms in London cannot pay these rates to someone with almost 10y experience in their field they should just move somewhere else where stuffs are cheaper. 

[spyguy]

23 hours ago, scottbeard said:

This is a very narrow and - I’m going to  say it - working class view of what a full time job looks like.

Most “performance” jobs, whether that’s music, theatre or sport will only ever result in a short period each day “on stage”.  And yes even as you say including training/rehearsing it is unlikely to amount to 40 hours of actual “doing your job”. But many of these involve very unsocial evening working hours, lots of travelling etc 

So does a premier league footballer work 40 hours a week on a football pitch or an actor 40 hours on stage? No. But it’s still a full time job - there is neither time nor need for another.

 

Pro footballer then they itll be more.

Serious time beyond training -checks, this n that.

You are basically never off the clock.

 

[spyguy]

On 01/04/2024 at 10:56, Si1 said:

Maths science IT and engineering teachers move into technical private sector areas all the time, I know several. That must be partially why there's such a skills shortage teaching these areas. Give them an abusive rork environment and the ones that can leave will. Especially if your managers are over promoted Mickey Mouse grads.

English/RE/history etc I know none who left. Funny how the management structures of schools end up being dominated by these types. I saw a hilarious thread on social media where one of them wanted to leave the stress of education but said couldn't take a pay cut below 30 grand as that's how much their lifestyle requires at a minimum. It's about control. There's no way some numpty English grad will get better pay than that outside education. And if you listen to the evidence-free waffle they come up with as education theory you'd wince.

 

On 01/04/2024 at 11:37, debtlessmanc said:

It’s also about the difficulty in finding a half decent STEM teacher. If you promote head of physics to management , how on earth would you find a replacement ? Arts teachers- no problem. 

 

23 hours ago, Si1 said:

I knew a FE lecturer in IT networking. Had a high level of pro quals on top of his good CS degree and pgce. The courses he ran raked in money for the college, because networking is obviously hugely in demand by industry. His breadth and depth of knowledge backed up by as I said advanced proquals from Cisco, Microsoft, etc meant that, especially being in West Yorkshire, he was headhunted by technical and finance firms to be a very senior network engineer on very good money.

He put this to his managers at the college and pointed out that they could match or at least compete on this salary and the courses he led would STILL be raking in cash for the college. The salary increase as a proportion to the college overall was quite small and it was frankly his market rate.

The knucklehead humanities grads in management didn't like the idea of "breaking the pay structure" for him which would have meant him earning twice what a poxy English teacher would get. So he left, he had to as the alternative pay offer was too good to refuse. And the course got closed down, as obviously there was noone available to run or teach it any more. All so eejit management could protect their own overpromoted ego.

This has come up in regards to the NHS.

Public sector - school ,hospitals etc etc are medium to large orgs that *DO* need management and oversight.

The revenue and money thats goes thru a ~3-11 school of, say, 200, is pretty high.

You got ~80+ staff, a capital budget and all the service to manage.

Its needs a fair bit of dedication and skill to do.

Most school managegent,nt is lousy. A lot seem to totter of one crisis to a scandal.

During my guvnoring days there was a lor of gossip of heads suddenly leaving.

Ideally there would be a Head qualification that you would need to take, say, when getting promoted to head of year.

In terms of jobs and moving around .. most teachers are stuck with being teachers. 80% would take massive hit in pay alone if they left. Check in the pension and extra 5 weeks holiday and they are looking at well over a 50% drop.

I had to intervene a couple of times when a few mid career teacher was going to walk out for 'more money'. Retrain as a plumber was popular for a bit - until I pointed out that plumbers dont earn that much.

Most teachers dont have STEM qualifications. You only tend to meet those 16+

Atill, there will be a massive oversupply of teachers soon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeanutButter]

17 hours ago, Blobsy said:

I can’t complain but I realise I earn more than most in my field, down to a mixture of hard graft and dumb luck.

Hard graft, there you go.

[Blobsy]

46 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

Hard graft, there you go.

Yes, but some might see it as I'm only 'working' 90 mins a day as that is the bit somebody is paying for.

Classical musicians are generally a different breed though. Some are alright and a good laugh but most are a very highbrow bunch looking down their noses at other musicians. Their technical skills are unquestionable but I find them stuck in their ways unable to adapt if something goes awry and they need to go 'off script' as they are chained to reading the dots, no improvisational skills.

 Get a string section in for live or recording and that is a huge slice of the budget due to MU rates. 

Having said that there is nothing that compares to the sound of a symphony orchestra in full flow when you're sat in front of one.

Edited April 2 by Blobsy

[scottbeard]

22 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

Yeah I’m working class lol, it’s not an insult to me. I’m not a social climber.

Not meant as an insult!  Just a perspective.  A builder, for example, starts work at 8am and builds stuff until lunchtime, then after lunch builds stuff until 4pm at which point they go home. Their work and their working time have virtually a 1:1 correlation, either you're working or you're not.  However, for someone in a creative or performance job the correlation is much less clear - if a concert pianist is flying to Vienna to perform is that part of their working or just a 3 hour commute to work?  If a writer goes for a walk around Colchester to get inspiration for his novel set in Colchester is that exercise, relaxation or work? etc

22 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

Concert Musician: oh no, I’m paid too low for the 20 hours of work I do each week, in a job that requires much training, and time away from home.

Firefighter: hold my non-alcoholic beer while I tell you about the 3 jobs I have.

But firefighters don't get second jobs because they are poor - they get paid £40,000 to £60,000 a year.

Instead, because they have distinct long shifts on call with equally long periods of days off sometimes they fill the days off with other jobs because why not?

To the earlier comment, if a firefighter is pulling someone out of a crashed car, or actually fighting a fire then of course they are working.  What if they are watching TV back at the fire station, awaiting the next call - is that working?