NoHPCinTheUK Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 11 minutes ago, byron78 said: Where else have you lived and where did you find people worked harder? I haven’t worked in any other country but I do work with people from all over the world. Europeans are lazy. We just don’t want to do much work and we tend to find ways to make tasks less time consuming. One of the main drivers for promotions and career aspirations is power and money. I do find that the Americans and the Asians work a lot harder than us. When I say work harder I mean literally working 12 h per day 6 days a week. People are quite happy joining a call around 6am or 10pm in their time zones whereas if I were to ask for a meeting to someone in Europe before 9am or after 6pm I always receive a no as an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RentingForever Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 18 minutes ago, NoHPCinTheUK said: It’s not a stereotype. The European are lazy. They simply don’t want to work. We really have no idea what actual work means in other parts of the globe. A matter of perspective. Are we lazy or just have a good handle on work/life balance in a fairly benign political system? Is what "actual work means" elsewhere just people working themselves into a grave in order to survive and feed their families in failed or autocratic/kleptocratic states? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHPCinTheUK Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Just now, RentingForever said: A matter of perspective. Are we lazy or just have a good handle on work/life balance in a fairly benign political system? Is what "actual work means" elsewhere just people working themselves into a grave in order to survive and feed their families in failed or autocratic/kleptocratic states? Yes. To me laziness is a great skill to have. I don’t like people who work too hard. They’re usually there to accomplish tasks and do not ask any questions. I like people who have max 8 h per day to spend in an office and want to work less so they can improve processes. We are so bloody lazy that we have the luxury of time and we use this time to think about the environment and lgbt rights etc. 6 billions people do not have this luxury. They have to work 15h per day, 7 days a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHPCinTheUK Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, RentingForever said: A matter of perspective. Are we lazy or just have a good handle on work/life balance in a fairly benign political system? Is what "actual work means" elsewhere just people working themselves into a grave in order to survive and feed their families in failed or autocratic/kleptocratic states? Lol. Do you really want to work 12h every day to make an IPhone or do you want to make money trading it and taking selfies using its cameras? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RentingForever Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 24 minutes ago, NoHPCinTheUK said: We are so bloody lazy that we have the luxury of time and we use this time to think about the environment and lgbt rights etc. 6 billions people do not have this luxury. They have to work 15h per day, 7 days a week. Do you not think it odd that you look at this situation and think the best way to equality is to make the Europeans work 15/7, rather than improve the lot of the other 6bn? More misery for more people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHPCinTheUK Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, RentingForever said: Do you not think it odd that you look at this situation and think the best way to equality is to make the Europeans work 15/7, rather than improve the lot of the other 6bn? More misery for more people! I actually want Europeans to work even less. There are billions of people out there willing to build our appliances, cars etc and leave us space to enjoy our life. If you want to be more productive and work in a shoe factory 15h every day be my guest. Edited August 17, 2022 by NoHPCinTheUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 44 minutes ago, NoHPCinTheUK said: I haven’t worked in any other country but I do work with people from all over the world. Europeans are lazy. We just don’t want to do much work and we tend to find ways to make tasks less time consuming. One of the main drivers for promotions and career aspirations is power and money. I do find that the Americans and the Asians work a lot harder than us. When I say work harder I mean literally working 12 h per day 6 days a week. People are quite happy joining a call around 6am or 10pm in their time zones whereas if I were to ask for a meeting to someone in Europe before 9am or after 6pm I always receive a no as an answer. Blimey. Why would anyone aspire to work 12hr 6 day works for anyone else? Do you think Americans and Asians are more desperate? Obviously a lot of the poorer ones are basically just left to rot in their respective countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 36 minutes ago, Brave New World said: Always amazes me the serf like idiocy of some who seem to think hard work, in many cases rowing back on notions of human rights advancement of the last hundred years, seems to be something that should be admired. The same types who would get spat out sideways a few weeks in to working in these cess pits. The types from the certain generation that has acted as a generational toddler. Sad. When I started work 1979 (yes I am a tale end boomer) manual hourly paid workers who worked past 40 hours a week were paid 1.5 X their hourly rate for every extra hour worked. Sundays was double time. Not so sure about higher up the rankings for office based salary paid workers , but friends of mine who went into salary paid office jobs did their 35 hours a week and that was it. Since then premium rates for over time have been abolished for many people and many office based people work past 35 hours with no extra pay. My Brother has worked in offices all his working life now 55. When he started the jobs were 9-5 now they are quite often 8.30 - 17.30 an extra hour has been squeezed in. I don't think it is fair to blame it on a generation as there are people of all generations in the work force. I blame it more on a slow culture shift that has crept in over the years. There is a dog eat dog mentality while at the same time there is a contradiction as companies are obsessed with what they call team building. A great example of this is the attitude on the programme the Apprentice. The contestants work as Teams on the tasks then rip each other to bits in the boardroom. I know it is only a TV show and is for entertainment purposes however the exact attitudes and expectations shown on this are a mirror of what has happened and is expected in the work force today. The Bosses attitude is " if you won't do it someone else will " while you have a willing army of minions only to willing to put themselves out in order to beat the competition for some crumbs. 53 minutes ago, Brave New World said: Given the stark stalling of wages Vs productivity of the last couple of decades, I stick a big fat one up to Truss, her boomer backroom fan club spouting this type of bs and the 'they do it so much better in ______ (some hell hole). As I said it is not boomers it is people in the work force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cash Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, byron78 said: Blimey. Why would anyone aspire to work 12hr 6 day works for anyone else? Do you think Americans and Asians are more desperate? Obviously a lot of the poorer ones are basically just left to rot in their respective countries. At the start of my career that was what I knew was necessary to gain promotions and more money. Gained experience, got into the best projects etc etc. I thought most would be the same. Was genuinely surprised when people more clever or from a wealthy background showed no inclination to improve themselves. I’m not capable of setting up and running my own business so no prospect of employing others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp_ Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 hours ago, hotblack42 said: Mainly they get away with it due to weak, lazy managers who don't like confrontation. The problem is created in the first place by managers who are short sighted or only care about short term costs in the first place. "Documentation and code review? We have heard of them" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy424 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Are the shareholders getting nervous? Meanwhile... 'Lying flat': Why some Chinese are putting work second - BBC News So, who will be lazy next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 42 minutes ago, byron78 said: Blimey. Why would anyone aspire to work 12hr 6 day works for anyone else? Do you think Americans and Asians are more desperate? Obviously a lot of the poorer ones are basically just left to rot in their respective countries. Quite. Not wanting that is not being lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 33 minutes ago, Nick Cash said: At the start of my career that was what I knew was necessary to gain promotions and more money. Gained experience, got into the best projects etc etc. I thought most would be the same. Was genuinely surprised when people more clever or from a wealthy background showed no inclination to improve themselves. "Improve"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp_ Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 37 minutes ago, byron78 said: Why would anyone aspire to work 12hr 6 day works for anyone else? Do you think Americans and Asians are more desperate? Obviously a lot of the poorer ones are basically just left to rot in their respective countries. It varies a lot between Asian countries, but basically you are right - and even some of those that are now developed have a culture still influenced by past poverty. The US has an extremely welfare safety net for a developed country, and even those in work have to contend with things like paying for medical care. Also, long hours does not equal higher productivity! It varies by job, of course, but in many cases getting people to work longer hours is a result of a toxic work culture. There is an issue with people who are reluctant of demotivated doing jobs they think are not good enough for them. Again a cultural issue. Even by the end of lockdown we had pretty much forgotten the importance of essential workers apart from the NHS, and even there its mostly nice middle class ones (doctors and nurses) who are appreciated. Maybe we need to be a bit less snobbish about this? Its not only a British problem though. It is a problem of secure and affluent societies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 35 minutes ago, Riedquat said: "Improve"? +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Of Highbridge Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Yep, same issue here. Earning £50k now, if I earn more the marginal tax rate between £50k and £60k is about 73%. To mitigate this we have a number of side huddles in my partner's name under the tax threshold. I'll never go for a promotion, unless it jumps from £50k to something like £70k due to extra responsibility, tax and hassle just to get another £5k per year into my account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 There's nothing more lazy that creating worthless fiat out of thin air and then forcing everyone else to be productive at gun point. Fecking hilarious system. Same as buying shares in companies and picking up monthly dividends for doing feck all work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wighty Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Work smarter, not harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nick Cash said: Was genuinely surprised when people more clever or from a wealthy background showed no inclination to improve themselves. I was one of these. Why didn't I work harder to move up? I didn't need or want to. I was working mainly to have a social life outside my usual circle and to live in the city if I'm completely honest. Edited August 17, 2022 by byron78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 18 minutes ago, Wurzel Of Highbridge said: Yep, same issue here. Earning £50k now, if I earn more the marginal tax rate between £50k and £60k is about 73%. To mitigate this we have a number of side huddles in my partner's name under the tax threshold. I'll never go for a promotion, unless it jumps from £50k to something like £70k due to extra responsibility, tax and hassle just to get another £5k per year into my account. Are you by any chance an IT manager with a short term outlook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkey Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 21 minutes ago, Wurzel Of Highbridge said: Yep, same issue here. Earning £50k now, if I earn more the marginal tax rate between £50k and £60k is about 73%. To mitigate this we have a number of side huddles in my partner's name under the tax threshold. I'll never go for a promotion, unless it jumps from £50k to something like £70k due to extra responsibility, tax and hassle just to get another £5k per year into my account. The child benefit tax is one of the most unfair taxes going. The threshold hasn’t been increased since 2013 , it’s not massively well publicised and catches many out . My mate got a 10k tax bill due to a car allowance pushing him over the threshold for 7 years. Also 2x working parents can earn 49k each and not pay it while 1x parent on 60k hammered. You can pay the excess money into your pension over 50k to get your taxable income down but it pushes you into pointless self assesment tax returns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancTom Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 4 hours ago, hotblack42 said: There are range of disincentives to earning above a certain pay level. This is a huge problem because it aligns broadly with median pay / potential pay in the UK. However, that doesn't explain the minority in IT and Finance who go to a great deal of trouble to maximise their income via salary, share options, pension uplifts whilst being careful to minimise their workload and, above all accountability. A popular route is to become the sole remaining 'expert' for a legacy system that other people avoid, but is in fact really easy to get your head around and just needs the occasional tweak, user support and a bit of putting the wheels back on due to simple memory leaks or poor storage management. These folk are typically on £60-70K salaries with benefits worth another £10K. Mainly they get away with it due to weak, lazy managers who don't like confrontation. A couple of times in my career when this funk has got too big to ignore, a hatchet man has been brought in to execute a redundancy program. The ensuing panic and sudden surge in productivity is delicious to behold. Or maybe management don’t want to spend money on multiple experts. Where I work management is happy to just live with the inefficiency of a new person reading the old persons code and training themselves. Given no major disaster with this approach there is little incentive for them to spend more money, especially if they assume they won’t be the unlucky one in charge when there is a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, clarkey said: Also 2x working parents can earn 49k each and not pay it while 1x parent on 60k hammered. You can pay the excess money into your pension over 50k to get your taxable income down but it pushes you into pointless self assesment tax returns They will also benefit from both being able to earn £12,570 = £25,140 a year before paying any income tax. If a couple chose to have one person staying at home for childcare they only get £12,570 tax free. When this was introduced the government mentioned looking at allowing couples to transfer unused tax allowances to the partner who was working. But I would not hold my breath as back in the 80's when Major first started reducing married man's higher tax allowance he also spoke about transferable unused tax allowances it never happened in the 80's or in 2013 so I don't think it will happen now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkey Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, Insane said: They will also benefit from both being able to earn £12,570 = £25,140 a year before paying any income tax. If a couple chose to have one person staying at home for childcare they only get £12,570 tax free. When this was introduced the government mentioned looking at allowing couples to transfer unused tax allowances to the partner who was working. But I would not hold my breath as back in the 80's when Major first started reducing married man's higher tax allowance he also spoke about transferable unused tax allowances it never happened in the 80's or in 2013 so I don't think it will happen now. The basic concept is people on high incomes shouldn’t get benefits. Which I agree with but theses days 60k is not much when you have a mortgage and bills especially in London that extra 150 quid would be helpful . If inflation carries on for much longer many ordinary jobs will be hit by this and it will catch many out. It’s a lovely Tory tax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHPCinTheUK Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, clarkey said: The basic concept is people on high incomes shouldn’t get benefits. Which I agree with but theses days 60k is not much when you have a mortgage and bills especially in London that extra 150 quid would be helpful . If inflation carries on for much longer many ordinary jobs will be hit by this and it will catch many out. It’s a lovely Tory tax 60k is the new 40k! I have read Walmart’s new target are people on $100k per year. We’ll all be millionaire soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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