High street...is no longer economically viable

[winkie]

6 minutes ago, Notting Hell said:

Why not buy a parcel delivery box?

 

?

Family firms.

[kzb]

21 minutes ago, winkie said:

Aldi and Lidl don't have shareholders to pay.....they can pass the profits to their customers and staff, not investors.

 

Well that might be another factor, but it's not really relevant to the topic.

[kzb]

12 minutes ago, Notting Hell said:

Why not buy a parcel delivery box?

That's another cost then.  I have used click and collect at the local shops, but that does mean a trip out.

[winkie]

6 minutes ago, kzb said:

Well that might be another factor, but it's not really relevant to the topic.

Very relevant imo......

[Notting Hell]

17 minutes ago, kzb said:

That's another cost then.

It's a bit like saying that when the letter box was first invented, that it was a cost for home owners to have a letter box fitted into their door. I think everyone will have delivery boxes in the future, possibly even ones with refrigerated/freezer compartments (or at the very least heavily insulated) so that even grocery orders can be delivered without anyone being in. The delivery box will also function as a collection box so that one can have their returns picked up, again asynchronously and securely.

[Pmax2020]

5 hours ago, kzb said:

High street can often be cheaper than on-line.  The delivery cost is often hidden in the price of the article.

Prime costs money, is it still £7.99 a month?

Then you have the hassle of the delivery, where they have a real talent for arriving during the five minutes you nipped out for something.

The reason the major supermarkets can't compete with Aldi and Lidl is because Aldi and Lidl are not subsidising a delivery service.  Reportedly each online grocery delivery is subsidised by about £20 on average, so that in-store shoppers are paying higher prices than they would otherwise.

Then there is the environmental damage of all the excess packaging and the delivery is usually by diesel van, increasing air pollution and (potentially) CO2 emissions.

I seldom pay for postage. Prime is £80 a year and well worth it for free next day delivery and other perks like Amazon tv/movies.

I’m once a month of so I’ll hit a B&M or Home Bargains for the cheap things but everything else is considerably cheaper online. 

 

[desiringonlychild]

8 hours ago, Bear Necessities said:

But once you know which brand of foundation you like best and which shade matches your skin exactly, the next time you need it you can buy it online, usually with a discount code.  Same for other cosmetics and things you buy regularly. 

I like trying out new brands. I am also slightly paler in winter so the shade changes. I do buy cosmetics online, but I do believe that  its invaluable being able to go to a physical store to try products out. I just ordered a makeup item online as it wasn't in stock in my shade at the physical store. But i still went to the physical store to make sure the shade I bought was correct... I do think many retail stores would not need so much space as they would function mainly as show rooms...

 

[crash-and-burn]

The problem in the UK is the roads are often congested, parking charges are eye watering and it's my understanding (as someone who hasn't visited the country in years) that more cities are inaccessible to certain cars.
When I go to the city (across the channel), there's usually somewhere free to park, and if not the multi-story car parks don't charge for the first 30 or 60 minutes, and then it's usually a couple of euros for a few hours. In towns, and everywhere else, parking remains free with very few exceptions. We still have quite a few niche shops that haven't fallen to the big chains, but the landscape is changing with more and more online sales.

It's a shame because we're already quite insular as a society, glued to screens and exercising less. Online sales are convenient, but I prefer to see something in person, stretch the legs and have a little social interaction.

And just to add, delivery is rarely (if ever) free, it's just built into the price.

Edited May 20, 2022 by crash-and-burn

[skinnylattej]

1 hour ago, crash-and-burn said:

The problem in the UK is the roads are often congested, parking charges are eye watering and it's my understanding (as someone who hasn't visited the country in years) that more cities are inaccessible to certain cars.
When I go to the city (across the channel), there's usually somewhere free to park, and if not the multi-story car parks don't charge for the first 30 or 60 minutes, and then it's usually a couple of euros for a few hours. In towns, and everywhere else, parking remains free with very few exceptions. We still have quite a few niche shops that haven't fallen to the big chains, but the landscape is changing with more and more online sales.

It's a shame because we're already quite insular as a society, glued to screens and exercising less. Online sales are convenient, but I prefer to see something in person, stretch the legs and have a little social interaction.

And just to add, delivery is rarely (if ever) free, it's just built into the price.

You are exactly right about parking charges, I live in a rural area and the local town parking charges are very high, and space very restricted, so if you haven't got a space by 9:30 am, you will struggle to find a space.  I challenged my local village idiot councillor about the high charges, and his response was that the council was trying to encourage car-free shopping.

[crash-and-burn]

1 hour ago, skinnylattej said:

You are exactly right about parking charges, I live in a rural area and the local town parking charges are very high, and space very restricted, so if you haven't got a space by 9:30 am, you will struggle to find a space.  I challenged my local village idiot councillor about the high charges, and his response was that the council was trying to encourage car-free shopping.

I think car parking charges were one of things that hit me hardest when I last went to the UK. I'd gotten so used to free parking, that I'd forgotten that nearly everywhere charges for it in the UK (even hospitals!). Not only that, but the prices are so much more expensive than I remember. If totaled up all the parking costs you might have in a year, I could probably live off that for a month or two. It's a no brainer that if it's too expensive it inhibits a lot of people from going shopping. What is car-free shopping? If you have lots of items or something bulky it's not practical trying to use public transport.

[Trampa501]

20 hours ago, kzb said:

High street can often be cheaper than on-line.  The delivery cost is often hidden in the price of the article.

Prime costs money, is it still £7.99 a month?

Then you have the hassle of the delivery, where they have a real talent for arriving during the five minutes you nipped out for something.

The reason the major supermarkets can't compete with Aldi and Lidl is because Aldi and Lidl are not subsidising a delivery service.  Reportedly each online grocery delivery is subsidised by about £20 on average, so that in-store shoppers are paying higher prices than they would otherwise.

Then there is the environmental damage of all the excess packaging and the delivery is usually by diesel van, increasing air pollution and (potentially) CO2 emissions.

Interesting point here (if true). If the supermarkets are subsidising grocery deliveries, why are they doing so? Probably for the same reason that Tesco only offers its cut prices to club card members. They want to monitor your purchases, so they can then target you to buy more from them eg if you buy a bottle of red, they will then send you emails telling you about the great wine club they run. 

[gp_]

On 18/05/2022 at 20:22, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Remember when a Pound could buy something?

In Saxon times it was 1 Pound of Silver, which today is about £250.

I am afraid my memory of Saxon times is getting rather vague these days

[gp_]

21 hours ago, winkie said:

Family firms

They still have shareholders. The shareholders are all related, more likely to take a long term view, and understand the business better, and will be involved in running it

[iamnumerate]

8 hours ago, skinnylattej said:

You are exactly right about parking charges, I live in a rural area and the local town parking charges are very high, and space very restricted, so if you haven't got a space by 9:30 am, you will struggle to find a space.  I challenged my local village idiot councillor about the high charges, and his response was that the council was trying to encourage car-free shopping.

In London that attitude can encourage people to drive further to Bluewater for free parking - not a great idea

[kzb]

2 hours ago, Trampa501 said:

Interesting point here (if true). If the supermarkets are subsidising grocery deliveries, why are they doing so? Probably for the same reason that Tesco only offers its cut prices to club card members. They want to monitor your purchases, so they can then target you to buy more from them eg if you buy a bottle of red, they will then send you emails telling you about the great wine club they run. 

Also I think they are subsidising it because it is their vision of the future.  It's ours as well, because people are told what their vision of the future is, and they love it.

The current supermarkets have been deployed to destroy local retailers, something they have now largely succeeded in doing.  The next stage is to close those supermarkets so we have no choice but to buy online, and get it delivered from a warehouse (although it will be called a fulfilment centre).

This will shift the balance from we being able to choose for ourselves,  over to them managing what we are allowed to buy this week, and when we can get it delivered.

I get some great offers via the Sainsbury's Smartshop App, plus the Nectar App.  On occasion they are paying me to buy something.  But it is all part of the ploy to get rid of checkout staff, and also to control what we buy.  It also means we get individual prices, so that the days of an item having "a price" are over.

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by kzb

[scottbeard]

17 hours ago, Pmax2020 said:

I seldom pay for postage. Prime is £80 a year and well worth it for free next day delivery and other perks like Amazon tv/movies.

I’m once a month of so I’ll hit a B&M or Home Bargains for the cheap things but everything else is considerably cheaper online. 

 

+1

Amazon Prime is very good value for the overall package, lots of good music and kids TV shows that you get, never mind next day delivery and free postage on orders.   I'd guess as a family we use Amazon TV/Music 5 days a week and buy something from Amazon twice a week.

[Bob8]

On 18/05/2022 at 20:17, Glenn said:

^ This

Plus you can look, touch, feel, smell the items you are buying. Try the clothes on and see if they fit/look good on you and not have to faff about mailing them back if they don't.

Some people just like 'going shopping' - looking around charity shops for a bargain; Finding a new little shop that has just opened. Things like that. 

Also for some items its actually still cheaper to pick something up while you are out or on your lunch break than it would be to pay to get it delivered. I needed a plastic measuring jug recently so picked one up from the pound shop. Couldn't get it that cheap from Amazon. 

Most clothes sold are for women. The services for their clothes build it that the customer can just send it back and choose not to buy. This means that rather than persudading you to come into the shop to try it on there, you are trying it on in your own house then deciding. And, once you have tried it on at home you are far more likely to decide to buy it.

Also, many people do not particularly like clothes as much as they like buying things. Making the second one easier is what counts for them.

[Trampa501]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

Also I think they are subsidising it because it is their vision of the future.  It's ours as well, because people are told what their vision of the future is, and they love it.

The current supermarkets have been deployed to destroy local retailers, something they have now largely succeeded in doing.  The next stage is to close those supermarkets so we have no choice but to buy online, and get it delivered from a warehouse (although it will be called a fulfilment centre).

This will shift the balance from we being able to choose for ourselves,  over to them managing what we are allowed to buy this week, and when we can get it delivered.

I get some great offers via the Sainsbury's Smartshop App, plus the Nectar App.  On occasion they are paying me to buy something.  But it is all part of the ploy to get rid of checkout staff, and also to control what we buy.  It also means we get individual prices, so that the days of an item having "a price" are over.

 

 

 

You've highlighted something important there, the idea of "individual prices"

This is already seen on some websites. If you've been looking say at a weekend trip, but go back later to book, you'll find the price has increased... I believe the likes of EasyGIT/Ryan Fare do this. You're led to believe that in the meantime someone has snapped up the cheaper seat. In reality they're just trying to squeeze a bit more from you. Brave new world indeed.

[nothernsoul]

Maybe the high street is the future? Is buying lots of disposable stuff from overseas, particularly shoes and clothes sustainable? Perhaps people will move to spending more money on better quality items, items that can be mended. 

Will the rise in costs of energy, shortage of materials for electric car batteries make car ownership and suburban living, unecessary deliveries of goods, uneconomical for the masses? If that happens will better public transport and local shops become more necessary?

At the moment, too many high streets contain the same identikit chain shops, selling the same stuff you can buy online.

 

 

[onlooker]

2 hours ago, kzb said:

The next stage is to close those supermarkets so we have no choice but to buy online, and get it delivered from a warehouse (although it will be called a fulfilment centre).

This will shift the balance from we being able to choose for ourselves,  over to them managing what we are allowed to buy this week, and when we can get it delivered.

I get some great offers via the Sainsbury's Smartshop App, plus the Nectar App.  On occasion they are paying me to buy something.  But it is all part of the ploy to get rid of checkout staff, and also to control what we buy.  It also means we get individual prices, so that the days of an item having "a price" are over.

 

 

 

But Aldi and Lidl, my preferred supermarkets, do not have an online service.

[pig]

On 18/05/2022 at 17:59, Notting Hell said:

So it costs about a maximum of £5 to have something purchased online delivered. Most of the time delivery is free or close to zero.

Why would anyone spend their time (cost at minimum wage), driving (fuel, maintenance, depreciation), wear (soles of shoes, clothes etc.), parking (risk of fine), train travel, etc. etc. when they can just have whatever they want delivered for about £5.

The high street is no longer a viable proposition. It is cheaper to pay the delivery cost and have an item delivered. Delivery is SO cheap it is unbelievable.

There is an obvious arbitrage opportunity here. Have something delivered if you need it and spend your time otherwise earning money.

 

Or you could frame this as a taxation arbitrage.... the hight street (low wages--> UC, business rates, rents etc.) is subsidising consumption at distance selling.

 

Why does the high street still exist...?

 

I think the only way town centres will survive is if the ground floor and basements of units are shops, and above are residential properties. There is an optimal ratio of shop/residences and we are so far from this.

 

I think online commerce/delivery is still in the stages of infancy and we are far from developed in this area. Globally, as the UK is an island nation that already has an established universal expectation(right?) of daily delivery (via Royal Mail), that the UK will lead the way in this shift from physical retailers. My gut feeling is that the Amazon model does not actually work well in the UK, due to RM.

The high street as we knew it perhaps isn’t viable - but would be short-sighted to turn it all residential.

I think these kind of areas - ‘hub’ areas - should stay flexible.

[kzb]

15 minutes ago, onlooker said:

But Aldi and Lidl, my preferred supermarkets, do not have an online service.

That's what I was saying originally.  And yes, that does not quite fit with the vision of the future I outlined.  It's possible a limited amount of physical shopping will still be allowed, especially in prole areas.

[winkie]

16 hours ago, gp_ said:

They still have shareholders. The shareholders are all related, more likely to take a long term view, and understand the business better, and will be involved in running it

So that has to be good for a innovative, original, local high street......have more of a stake, interest in the local community, can both adapt to change are more consistent....

When a local original family shop that has been in the high street for many decades closes its doors, part of the soul of the place is removed....often the owner is ready to retire and the kids not interested in the shop work, hard work for falling returns...... we as a country do not encourage or support the small business or the people that run them, high rents and rates and parking charges, that is why we a fast losing them.......no reason to go into town, is that what we want?

[skinnylattej]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:51 AM, crash-and-burn said:

I think car parking charges were one of things that hit me hardest when I last went to the UK. I'd gotten so used to free parking, that I'd forgotten that nearly everywhere charges for it in the UK (even hospitals!). Not only that, but the prices are so much more expensive than I remember. If totaled up all the parking costs you might have in a year, I could probably live off that for a month or two. It's a no brainer that if it's too expensive it inhibits a lot of people from going shopping. What is car-free shopping? If you have lots of items or something bulky it's not practical trying to use public transport.

Car-free shopping is a fantasy dreamt up by Cornwall Council, whereby we catch to non-existent bus to the town, do our shopping and return home by bus.  Firstly the bus stop is 30 minutes walk from  my house.  Secondly, the service is awful during the week, and almost no buses at the weekend.  Thirdly, it is expensive, £5 each way for less than 2 miles.  Never mind about the shopping, if you have small kids, or kids in a pushchair it is a nightmare.

[skinnylattej]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:24 PM, longgone said:

It will kill it all eventually retail that is. Does it actually make a profit though. High streets are for sweet shops, estate agents, coffee shops and takaways the odd post office and small supermarket.

I use pubs the post office and the  supermarket. I have no reason to go in any other.

 

And recycling centres, I mean charity shops.