PETER HITCHENS: What is the point of tourists' checks and tests if migrants can just walk into Dover?

[MARTINX9]

2 hours ago, spyguy said:

My gran was involved with the initial setup of the NHS.

By the end of her life shes was thoroughly pissed off with it.

There are more health care systems than NHS or American, which is always the argument given by pro NHS people.

No other country has copied the NHS or the US system.

If the NHS did not get extra wieghting for 'health equality'  which is a nuts metric to measure, then it would be one of the developed worlds worse performing health care systems.

 

 

It’s always quite amazing as you say that apparently the only alternative to the NHS is the US system. Often the same people who extol the virtues of the EU and ‘Europe’ seem to forget those countries exist when it comes to healthcare. Most operate through private provision with social insurance and get better outcomes without having to wait 3 weeks to see a GP.

A bit like our non contributory benefits system and crazily low contributory welfare system. In other countries those who work hard - at whatever wage - are rewarded later on. In the UK they are often little or no better off than people who never contributed much at all.

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by MARTINX9

[Riedquat]

3 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

A bit like our non contributory benefits system and crazily low contributory welfare system. In other countries those who work hard - at whatever wage - are rewarded later on. In the UK they are often little or no better off than people who never contributed much at all.

So if you work hard early on but get unlucky later you're OK - what happens if you get unlucky early on? Tough?

[Locke]

.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Locke

[Locke]

10 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

99% sure you went on to say you'd never been beyond the Canary Is.

You could quote it- it would be a pretty easy forum search query

16 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

If its a typo and 17l that bottle represemts 2/3 the height of a rucksack if its a Sigg style bottle

Ah it was a typo - 70L

 

You think it would be hard to miss one of these in a bag of that size? Well, it wasn't and neither did the xray scanner think so.

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-White-Spirit-Low-Odour---750ml/p/600340

 

On the other hand, I'm glad they kept us safe by confiscating a tub of clotted cream and tin of mackerel from me on another trip.

[byron78]

29 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

It’s always quite amazing as you say that apparently the only alternative to the NHS is the US system. Often the same people who extol the virtues of the EU and ‘Europe’ seem to forget those countries exist when it comes to healthcare. Most operate through private provision with social insurance and get better outcomes without having to wait 3 weeks to see a GP.

A bit like our non contributory benefits system and crazily low contributory welfare system. In other countries those who work hard - at whatever wage - are rewarded later on. In the UK they are often little or no better off than people who never contributed much at all.

 

 

 

Which of the other country's you've lived in have a better system Martin?

[Staffsknot]

3 minutes ago, Locke said:

You could quote it- it would be a pretty easy forum search query

Ah it was a typo - 70L

 

You think it would be hard to miss one of these in a bag of that size? Well, it wasn't and neither did the xray scanner think so.

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-White-Spirit-Low-Odour---750ml/p/600340

 

On the other hand, I'm glad they kept us safe by confiscating a tub of clotted cream and tin of mackerel from me on another trip.

I searched couldn't find it, but then I doubt you'd be daft enough to leave anything like that. May be I misremembered although strange you seem to have just noticed, but you still espouse not to be a traveller.

It is however irrelevant as a 70l is not a carry on. Good luck getting that past the check-in, gate or into an overhead bin on a trip to Greece. That bag also has 4 compartments - top lid, side pockets and main comp just at a glance.

Was this a special flight that allowed large bags in the cabin? Just wondering as anything bigger than 36l normally gets measured and 50l or larger bags are routinely taken to the hold. But yeah you walked it with 70l and a litre of white spirit.

I'm loving how its now not petrol its white spirit. The story evolves as it unravels. 

Was the camping stove still in there too or had you remembered to remove that?

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, Big Orange said:

A lot of healthcare can only be tailored built to specific countries or even regions of countries (see the streamlined, reformed Scottish NHS).

This guy goes to some way explaining why the NHS is dysfunctional, when it was too centrally organised and cannot meet demand (while corporatized through the backdoor by the divisive Thatcher and odious Blair):

Though something went wrong with the NHS when you had trusts too dependent on charity funding by abusive, predatory charlatans like Sir James Wilson Vincent Savile.

Also I think mental health care (due to stigma and ignorance, and shutting down too many asylums by the 80s/90s) has been an invisible catastrophe that has contributed greatly to most random frenzied assaults and murders you hear about in the media.

No.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/teach/how-did-britain-build-the-nhs/zvhmkmn

In 1942, Sir William Beveridge, a prominent government economist, was commissioned to write a report on social policy to advise how Britain should rebuild after World War Two.

In his report, Beveridge identified society's five "Great Evils", namely: want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness. He proposed a revolutionary form of government organisation, with an ambitious system of social security designed to set new standards for citizen welfare, a system we now call the welfare state.

The Beveridge Report set out some radical and controversial new ideas and was initially set to play a significant role in World War Two itself.

A key component of this report was a National Health Service that was free at the point of access and paid for by taxation. This idea went on to form the basis for the NHS when it was introduced in 1948.

 

http://www.drhalvorsen.co.uk/decline_of_infectiious_diseases.html

http://www.drhalvorsen.co.uk/decline_of_infectiious_diseases_files/6d1b7e98-ee25-4bab-834e-0b4d88b98447.png

http://www.drhalvorsen.co.uk/decline_of_infectiious_diseases_files/af97a22e-dc8a-4e14-b2e8-96dc96dd8805.png

NHs was set up to prevent preventable disease.

By the 50s, antibiotics and vaccines had removed the main demand for the NHS.

National healthcare systems about about mass heath.

What Labour have created is a badly run monster, where its affect on the nations health is neglible.

By making he NHS free at the point of use, the system is clogged up with time wasters and dossers.

A trip to AnE wil leasily confirm this.

A friend is an AnE Dr. The majotirry of his cases are regular customers - or people whove been unable to get a GP appointment.

 

 

 

[dugsbody]

On 06/06/2021 at 12:41, debtlessmanc said:

Brexit was at to a large extent about inward migration, there is little doubt. But many people (i admit myself) were worried not so much about migration (that affected me little and anyway the migrants i work with are very nice middle class ones) but about the danger of fascism. I did attempt to argue occasionally with my peer group that fascism was more likely to afflict us if we remained than if we left. Many of old school labour understood this, eg Dennis Skinner. I never understood the idea that the EU was a bulwark against extremism. We have neo-fascists in charge in Hungary and Poland and the EU just makes some vague noises about how undesirable they are. The real comedy was remianers and EU citizens claiming (Turkish heritage) Boris was a fascist. A lazy buffoon and libertarian yes, but no fascist.

mean while the AFD has taken the lead in the local saxony-anhalt elections...

https://www.dw.com/en/in-saxony-anhalt-far-right-afd-poised-to-upset-mainstream/a-57742250

"I'm worried that if we allow black people to use the same toilets as white people that it will result in the rise of more racist parties, therefore I support keeping blacks and whites separate".

 

[Locke]

38 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Good luck getting that past the check-in, gate or into an overhead bin on a trip to Greece.

Check in staff didn't seem to give a shit, ever. The only time I was made to put hand luggage in the hold was a much more reasonable laptop bag.

39 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

I'm loving how its now not petrol its white spirit. The story evolves as it unravels. 

They're the same thing.

39 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Was the camping stove still in there too or had you remembered to remove that?

Nah I just use it to start bbqs

41 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

anything bigger than 36l normally gets measured and 50l or larger bags are routinely taken to the hold.

They measure the hard shell bags, but don't care too much about fabric bags. Maybe you just look shifty?

[smash]

21 minutes ago, Locke said:

Check in staff didn't seem to give a shit, ever. The only time I was made to put hand luggage in the hold was a much more reasonable laptop bag.

They're the same thing.

Nah I just use it to start bbqs

They measure the hard shell bags, but don't care too much about fabric bags. Maybe you just look shifty?

You use petrol to start BBQs?

[Locke]

28 minutes ago, smash said:

You use petrol to start BBQs?

You don't?

[smash]

Just now, Locke said:

You don't?

No, I would use firelighter type things but I guess petroleum is/might be a component of those. Still can't believe you actually took a bottle of petrol onto a plane though, I've had tools I didn't realise I had in my carry on taken off me at security scan.

[debtlessmanc]

12 minutes ago, smash said:

No, I would use firelighter type things but I guess petroleum is/might be a component of those. Still can't believe you actually took a bottle of petrol onto a plane though, I've had tools I didn't realise I had in my carry on taken off me at security scan.

Must admit i have had a visitor from brussels turn up from a flight only discover he had left folding knife in his briefcase and no-one at the airport noticed it.

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

"I'm worried that if we allow black people to use the same toilets as white people that it will result in the rise of more racist parties, therefore I support keeping blacks and whites separate".

 

Apartheid is different from border control. you do know that? My (white) ex brother in law attempted to overstay a tourists visa and work in south africa, within weeks he was banged up in a Jail and then deported.

[Staffsknot]

1 hour ago, Locke said:

Check in staff didn't seem to give a shit, ever. The only time I was made to put hand luggage in the hold was a much more reasonable laptop bag.

They're the same thing.

Nah I just use it to start bbqs

They measure the hard shell bags, but don't care too much about fabric bags. Maybe you just look shifty?

Nope try again the airline gravy train is getting oversized bags and I have a 45l bag for this reason.

You know at this point you're at the visiting Salisbury for its Cathedral level of explanation.

Do you want to know why 50l bags top that acceptible limit? Because if they have to stick it in the hold and its fabric it needs to go via a separate screening to normal suitcases. Exped bags in several airports need to go to the outsized luggage desk instead of the normal suitcase check-in. Some airports do this as routine.

But its all seen as higher risk.

So we're at Easyjet or another airline ignoring your camping bag, the machines missing your bottle of liquid which is invisible to them but not you and just happens to evade any trace detection. Your instinct being to bin in an airport a flammible liquid which if seen by a member of staff causes a security alert... instead of hand it in.

Oh and you are heading to a wedding with everything in a 70l bag.

That's quite a story. Massively implausible but its a story no less. Ripping yarn.

Strange how they can detect trace elements on camping stoves and it sets off all the alarms and a nurse I knew had some resealable bags from work that got pinged as trace of diamorphine pre the swab check.

Which is why I'm filing this under BS of enormous magnitude.

Also white spirit and petrol are not interchangeable terms.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Staffsknot

[MARTINX9]

3 hours ago, Riedquat said:

So if you work hard early on but get unlucky later you're OK - what happens if you get unlucky early on? Tough?

I merely observe that someone can work for decades paying into the system and when they lose their job and have more than £16000 in savings  (a meagre house deposit or a year or twos rent) all they receive is £70 a week JSA and then for only six months. We also have just about the worst contributory state pension relative to average wages in Europe - little more than you would get on means tested pension credit even if you had never paid much in NI.

That of course then incentivises certain behaviours - possibly why we have amongst the highest child poverty rates in Europe. Cos the only people who get a monetary incentive to have extra kids are the poor.

Sorry if the reality hurts but working and saving and doing the right thing is not rewarded in the UK - unless you buy property. For those on lower to average wages you end up little better off for your efforts than those who didn’t bother much at all!

That of course being where are non contributory welfare system gets you unlike most of the rest of Europe - low wages and more poverty! The opposite of what it’s proponents claim.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by MARTINX9

[smash]

52 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Nope try again the airline gravy train is getting oversized bags and I have a 45l bag for this reason.

You know at this point you're at the visiting Salisbury for its Cathedral level of explanation.

Do you want to know why 50l bags top that acceptible limit? Because if they have to stick it in the hold and its fabric it needs to go via a separate screening to normal suitcases. Exped bags in several airports need to go to the outsized luggage desk instead of the normal suitcase check-in. Some airports do this as routine.

But its all seen as higher risk.

So we're at Easyjet or another airline ignoring your camping bag, the machines missing your bottle of liquid which is invisible to them but not you and just happens to evade any trace detection. Your instinct being to bin in an airport a flammible liquid which if seen by a member of staff causes a security alert... instead of hand it in.

Oh and you are heading to a wedding with everything in a 70l bag.

That's quite a story. Massively implausible but its a story no less. Ripping yarn.

Strange how they can detect trace elements on camping stoves and it sets off all the alarms and a nurse I knew had some resealable bags from work that got pinged as trace of diamorphine pre the swab check.

Which is why I'm filing this under BS of enormous magnitude.

Also white spirit and petrol are not interchangeable terms.

It does sound like he's never been through an airport. Taking petrol, white spirit on board? What the hell kind of lunatic is he exactly?

[AThirdWay]

On 06/06/2021 at 11:50, Warlord said:

If in fear of their lives they should claim asylum in France or whatever country they land in just like the Geneva convention says 

Britain should have very few immigrants being an island nation (similar to Japan )

There is no obligation in the Refugee Convention, either explicit or implicit, to claim asylum in the first safe country reached by a refugee.

Prove me wrong...

[Warlord]

2 minutes ago, AThirdWay said:

There is no obligation in the Refugee Convention, either explicit or implicit, to claim asylum in the first safe country reached by a refugee.

Prove me wrong...

Already done
~
I'd leave all the conventions in an ideal world

[MARTINX9]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

Apartheid is different from border control. you do know that? My (white) ex brother in law attempted to overstay a tourists visa and work in south africa, within weeks he was banged up in a Jail and then deported.

Yes such a dumb argument.

Arguably the people who benefitted most from Eastern European migration were generally older white middle class people who got cheaper services and trades people and higher house prices from the rising population and associated policies.

It was the young - and disproportionately young black men - who were the ones most disadvantaged by it given the greater competition for jobs and housing and the depressed wages which resulted.

 

 

[AThirdWay]

6 minutes ago, Warlord said:

Already done
~
I'd leave all the conventions in an ideal world

No, you've shown/proved nothing.

Having had a read of your posts, I see your opinions on this matter are as childish as your opinions on Trump. No conversation required here, your approach is simplistic in the extreme.

[AThirdWay]

Duplicate

Edited June 7, 2021 by AThirdWay

[Warlord]

1 minute ago, AThirdWay said:

No, you've shown/proved nothing.

Having had a read of your posts, I see your opinions on this matter are as childish as your opinions on Trump. No conversation required here, your approach is simplistic in the extreme.

My views are held by millions in the great regions of this country. Keep being condescending and dismissive of us as it really doesn't help your cause 

[smash]

7 minutes ago, Warlord said:

My views are held by millions in the great regions of this country. Keep being condescending and dismissive of us as it really doesn't help your cause 

Well try running leaving all international conventions up a flag pole then. People like you, with your opinions just seem to want to say "it should be like this". But it never will, it's just the usual cry of the frustrated supposed "libertarian".

[Warlord]

2 minutes ago, smash said:

Well try running leaving all international conventions up a flag pole then. People like you, with your opinions just seem to want to say "it should be like this". But it never will, it's just the usual cry of the frustrated supposed "libertarian".

Leaving the conventions is popular among the people. The people north of your ivory tower