PETER HITCHENS: What is the point of tourists' checks and tests if migrants can just walk into Dover?

[Warlord]

1 minute ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Wrong. And this has been repeatedly pointed out to you before:

 

it is (was) common sense and in the EU framework. I would pull out of the conventions anyway and say sod you all 

[debtlessmanc]

5 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

So assuming the kids will enter the UK workforce, bit like they did with native kids - who also emigrate to places like Australia potentially.

Given most of thye people coming were adults and working. They have kids, the kids enter work force, fail to see your point. Basically if the kids emigrate its the same as a local doing the same. 

They also overstate the costs in other areas to compensate for other aspects of ambiguity

 

n

Indeed surveys of EU migrants to the UK show that a majority want to migrant to Anglosphere countries, in particular Oz or NZ.  What does the EU feel about this?

[Pindar]

1 minute ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Wrong. And this has been repeatedly pointed out to you before:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/truth-about-refugees

4. There is no legal requirement for a refugee to claim asylum in any particular country

Neither the 1951 Refugee Convention nor EU law requires a refugee to claim asylum in one country rather than another.

There is no rule requiring refugees to claim in the first safe country in which they arrive.

The EU does run a system – called the Dublin Regulations – which allows one EU country to require another to accept responsibility for an asylum claim where certain conditions apply.

The relevant conditions include that the person is shown to have previously entered that other EU country or made a claim there. This is supposed to share responsibility for asylum claims more equitably among EU countries and discourage people moving on from one EU country to another. But it doesn’t work.

It is clear the system greatly benefits countries like the UK and is very unfair to countries like Greece and Italy. That’s part of the reason Germany has just suspended the Dublin Regulations when dealing with people fleeing from Syria.

Yes but I also seem to recall it was Germany who invited half of Syria to come to Germany. 

[Will!]

14 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

So assuming the kids will enter the UK workforce, bit like they did with native kids - who also emigrate to places like Australia potentially.

Given most of the people coming were adults and working. They have kids, the kids enter work force, fail to see your point. Basically if the kids emigrate its the same as a local doing the same. 

 

In a nutshell:  those kids are a net cost now and the assumption that they will pay for themselves over a lifetime is an assumption.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Will!

[debtlessmanc]

22 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Wrong. And this has been repeatedly pointed out to you before:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/truth-about-refugees

4. There is no legal requirement for a refugee to claim asylum in any particular country

Neither the 1951 Refugee Convention nor EU law requires a refugee to claim asylum in one country rather than another.

There is no rule requiring refugees to claim in the first safe country in which they arrive.

The EU does run a system – called the Dublin Regulations – which allows one EU country to require another to accept responsibility for an asylum claim where certain conditions apply.

The relevant conditions include that the person is shown to have previously entered that other EU country or made a claim there. This is supposed to share responsibility for asylum claims more equitably among EU countries and discourage people moving on from one EU country to another. But it doesn’t work.

It is clear the system greatly benefits countries like the UK and is very unfair to countries like Greece and Italy. That’s part of the reason Germany has just suspended the Dublin Regulations when dealing with people fleeing from Syria.

I was remoresley bullied by my brothers as a child, beaten-put in hospital at one point. Can I move to sweden after brexit? i need some advice. can you help me Monsieurcoppercrutch?

Edited June 6, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[Staffsknot]

8 minutes ago, Will! said:

In a nutshell:  those kids are a net cost now and the assumption that they will pay for themselves over a lifetime is an assumption.

In a nutshell when comparing to UK natives those kids are a cost now and the assumption is they will also pay for that over their lifetimes too. So again precisely like all kids born here.

We can go round this on an endless loop.

Explain to me what you think is different to a 30 year old migrant having a child or a 30 year old native, when both entered the work force in their twenties? 

I was a net cost at birth as were you.

 

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

8 hours ago, Bob8 said:

Yes. Got it.

Still hardly compares to the trauma of having your holiday cancelled.

People like Peter Hitchens and you seem to be very delicate little flowers.

Except what he posted was a complete lie re Geneva Convention.  
 

Threads like these do serve a purpose though as they are like a honeypot to the xenophobic and racist posters hiding in plain sight. They can’t help themselves but crawl out from their holes. 

[Staffsknot]

10 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

I was remoresley bullied by my brothers as a child, beaten-put in hospital at one point. Can I move to sweden after brexit? i need some advice. can you help me Monsieurcoppercrutch?

If you are still at risk of harm or persecution in your home country you could try. However I fear they may direct you to your local police or any of the numerous methods of recourse afforded in the UK and you may learn what the Swedish for time-waster is if a face-to-face meeting is held.

[debtlessmanc]

9 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Except what he posted was a complete lie re Geneva Convention.  
 

Threads like these do serve a purpose though as they are like a honeypot to the xenophobic and racist posters hiding in plain sight. They can’t help themselves but crawl out from their holes. 

what hole do you live in? or are you up your own a**e? You never really portray the world you want to live in, only the one you claim you do not, Next week my wife and I will start a 4 week tour of britain by canal boat. It is a beautiful country and we will celebrate it by boat. it is something worth preserving. Is your world? or is it just a financial benefit world?

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

If you are still at risk of harm or persecution in your home country you could try. However I fear they may direct you to your local police or any of the numerous methods of recourse afforded in the UK and you may learn what the Swedish for time-waster is if a face-to-face meeting is held.

very funny- you have no idea, beaten so hard i lost  a testicle, in hospital for days. Taken in by distant family to protect me. Mother and Father thought i was making it up. Our society, even 30-4o years ago was really grim.

 

[Will!]

1 hour ago, Staffsknot said:

The stats have always shown immigrants are net contributors

 

15 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

In a nutshell when comparing to UK natives those kids are a cost now and the assumption is they will also pay for that over their lifetimes too. So again precisely like all kids born here.

The report you cited doesn't show they're net contributors, it assumes it.

17 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Explain to me what you think is different to a 30 year old migrant having a child or a 30 year old native, when both entered the work force in their twenties? 

I was a net cost at birth as were you.

 

Since you ask, post-industrial UK GDP per capita doesn't benefit from a net increase in the population.

[Staffsknot]

2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

what hole do you live in? or are you up your own a**e? You never really portray the world you want to live in, only the one you claim you do not, Next week my wife and I will start a 4 week tour of britain by canal boat. It is a beautiful country and we will celebrate it by boat. it is something worth preserving. Is your world? or is it just a financial benefit world?

I don't think he stated that the UK was a shithole so I'm lost at that reaction.

One more thing - are those canals any of the ones the EU helped out with funding restoration of via ERDF perchance?

[Bob8]

34 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Except what he posted was a complete lie re Geneva Convention.  
 

Threads like these do serve a purpose though as they are like a honeypot to the xenophobic and racist posters hiding in plain sight. They can’t help themselves but crawl out from their holes. 

There is an issue with modern debate that many conservatives do not feel they can say what they think.

[debtlessmanc]

Just now, Staffsknot said:

I don't think he stated that the UK was a shithole so I'm lost at that reaction.

One more thing - are those canals any of the ones the EU helped out with funding restoration of via ERDF perchance?

No, the EU has no interest in UK narrow canals. They wanted to ban red diesel in Canal boats. The UK has had rule that boats can self declare how much diesel is used for heating (5% VAT) and what is used for propulsion (20% VAT). Narrow Boats are too small for two tanks and anyway marinas in the uk cannot afford to have two pumps tanks etc. The EU declared a few years ago that all EU boats had to either have two tanks or pay full duty on all diesel as otherwise it would lead to unfare competition that one state could charge low vat on diesel and all boats would fuel in one state - Narrowboats are only found on the island of great britain and they are not seaworthy -DOH. This minor crap has turned nearly all narrowboaters and live aboards  (who are mostly poor folk) against the EU- well done

[Staffsknot]

36 minutes ago, Will! said:

 

The report you cited doesn't show they're net contributors, it assumes it.

Since you ask, post-industrial UK GDP per capita doesn't benefit from a net increase in the population.

And how much contribution to GDP is all the vacancies currently outstanding that can't be filled?

Just like the report assumes the migrants are here for the long haul not as many did earn and return to live like kings or seasonal workers who contribute more again as don't access services.

You can try and pick holes but its pretty bloody obvious that many of the things in the report point to immigrants contributing. You can't prove it to death because you have to make assumptions. Same as you can't prove a local wouldn't have become the fruit picker instead, but the current fruit picking crisis gives a damn good indication.

24 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

No, the EU has no interest in UK narrow canals. They wanted to ban red diesel in Canal boats. The UK has had rule that boats can self declare how much diesel is used for heating (5% VAT) and what is used for propulsion (20% VAT). Narrow Boats are too small for two tanks and anyway marinas in the uk cannot afford to have two pumps tanks etc. The EU declared a few years ago that all EU boats had to either have two tanks or pay full duty on all diesel as otherwise it would lead to unfare competition that one state could charge low vat on diesel and all boats would fuel in one state - Narrowboats are only found on the island of great britain and they are not seaworthy -DOH. This minor crap has turned nearly all narrowboaters and live aboards  (who are mostly poor folk) against the EU- well done

Well that's balls as the CRT folk and liveaboards I talked to were horrified at the loss of funding, some even campaigned to highlight it. Happen to walk a canal daily and they had vote remain stickers on their barges so I suggest 'nearly all' is again not true. We have half a dozen marinas close by in Staffs and even in Brexit central of Stoke they were worried.

As for the EU directive - it is yet another example of rubber stamped policy we could opt out of if politicians could be arsed. There are many such directives but we were famous for lazily passing and adopting them because any flak its the EU. So the blame lies closer to home.

I know quite a few canal barge owners, inc some under 40 and you are the first who seems to have the EU down as bad for canals. Maybe they just saw the benefits of having canals to run on - the ERDF was tapped by CRT for UK canals btw so whether you think they had an interest or not they helped fund works on Trent & Mersey, Brecon and a host of others. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Staffsknot

[Will!]

3 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

And how much contribution to GDP is all the vacancies currently outstanding that can't be filled?

Most of them could be filled if they paid more.

5 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Just like the report assumes the migrants are here for the long haul not as many did earn and return to live like kings or seasonal workers who contribute more again as don't access services.

You can try and pick holes but its pretty bloody obvious that many of the things in the report point to immigrants contributing. You can't prove it to death because you have to make assumptions. Same as you can't prove a local wouldn't have become the fruit picker instead, but the current fruit picking crisis gives a damn good indication.

With the power of assumption we can achieve anything!

If you're ex-army then you'll know what assumption is the mother of.

Shall we assume I'm right and leave it there?

[spacedin]

7 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Downing street criticized orban openly- hardly cozying up

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57287343

UKIP was the closest that the UK has come to a fascist party- where are they now?

Yes but sadly, it's undeniable that Boris Johnson does have things in common with Viktor Orban. They're both populist leaders, popular despite them making bigoted and racist comments, although admittedly Orban has put more of his intolerance into practice.

They're also both arguably on the far right of the political spectrum. We have the most right wing government in our history, that's not something to be proud of in the era of Trump, Bolsonaro etc. 

We even have a Home Secretary that supports capital punishment.

As for Hitchens, he's spent most of his life arguing that the Conservative Party aren't right wing enough. Some of his positions are an absolute joke, like drug policy for example, a fact free zone as far as he is concerned.

Edited June 6, 2021 by spacedin

[byron78]

If anyone here thinks the UK is a shit hole, you should have seen the state of it in 1945.

[debtlessmanc]

10 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

And how much contribution to GDP is all the vacancies currently outstanding that can't be filled?

Just like the report assumes the migrants are here for the long haul not as many did earn and return to live like kings or seasonal workers who contribute more again as don't access services.

You can try and pick holes but its pretty bloody obvious that many of the things in the report point to immigrants contributing. You can't prove it to death because you have to make assumptions. Same as you can't prove a local wouldn't have become the fruit picker instead, but the current fruit picking crisis gives a damn good indication.

Well that's balls as the CRT folk and liveaboards I talked to were horrified at the loss of funding, some even campaigned to highlight it. Happen to walk a canal daily and they had vote remain stickers on their barges so I suggest 'nearly all' is again not true. We have half a dozen marinas close by in Staffs and even in Brexit central of Stoke they were worried.

As for the EU directive - it is yet another example of rubber stamped policy we could opt out of if politicians could be arsed. There are many such directives but we were famous for lazily passing and adopting them because any flak its the EU. So the blame lies closer to home.

I know quite a few canal barge owners, inc some under 40 and you are the first who seems to have the EU down as bad for canals. Maybe they just saw the benefits of having canals to run on - the ERDF was tapped by CRT for UK canals btw so whether you think they had an interest or not they helped fund works on Trent & Mersey, Brecon and a host of others. 

Going around the system, the people i met were mostly leavers. To generalise a lot the system has 3 kinds on people on it. Well off boaters who love the system (my wife, the ones i know are largely leavers). Bohemians, system full of them and many would be remainers in the sense that they are libertarians. Retirees who used there lump sump to buy a canal boat- Absolutely classic brexiteers. My view anyway.

[Staffsknot]

1 minute ago, Will! said:

Most of them could be filled if they paid more.

With the power of assumption we can achieve anything!

If you're ex-army then you'll know what assumption is the mother of.

Shall we assume I'm right and leave it there?

If you assume you're right that would be birthing the afforementioned imho but by all means as we'll just loop on this as you will read it one way, I will read it another. This is the internet we don't have to agree and you're going to assume it anyway

If the fruit pickers are paid more the fruit is economically not viable so the farm folds or does something else. That's why simplistic solutions don't always work out.

 

[spyguy]

2 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

Again look at the tax situation, most immigrants come to work and pay taxes, FOM was largely used by workers. The whole collapse of labour for hospitality, farming and care home NHS exodus is evidence we had workers using it.

Most were young, economically active net contributors.

Its when we get to people trying to squeeze refugees and FOM under the same banner we start getting ooh look at these benefits migrants / people not working - mainly because it is illegal for refugees to work while awaiting their cases to be heard too.

The stats have always shown immigrants are net contributors, however any pressure on services did not receive that money back targeted at that area it spread as a whole. Giving the view immigrants are causing issues.

The same argument about pressure on infrastructure / schools is made about the draw to the S East of England with new estates.

Regugee-wise they were also often dumped in perceived cheaper seaside towns in the north, as is policy with child care homes, with tensions with the locals. Again domestic policy not anything external.

There's been a lot of guff posted in these pages and tbh things like The Sun and Daily Mail have whipped up enough FUD over the years and Farage's false narratives and Turkey join EU nonsense to hide actual facts

Not even close.

All MrsSpy EU family are all on the highest pupil premium.

This is repeated thru all her mates schools.

Inwork benefits blurs tge line between productive and tax payer najnted work.

Chuck in a non working spouse and a couple of kids in school and you are talking a 30k cost to ukgov.

 

[debtlessmanc]

19 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Well that's balls as the CRT folk and liveaboards I talked to were horrified at the loss of funding, some even campaigned to highlight it. Happen to walk a canal daily and they had vote remain stickers on their barges so I suggest 'nearly all' is again not true. We have half a dozen marinas close by in Staffs and even in Brexit central of Stoke they were worried.

 

Sorry i feel i need to jumo in again, My wife and I met the CEO of the CRT at a lock on the Staff and Worcs 4 years ago, Total T**t was having a photo opportunity trying to get a boat into a lock, smashed the lock gates several times and then wanted ,y wife to be photo'd with him on the lock gates. If he was a remainer, he was a total idiot.

[debtlessmanc]

15 minutes ago, spacedin said:

Yes but sadly, it's undeniable that Boris Johnson does have things in common with Viktor Orban. They're both populist leaders, popular despite them making bigoted and racist comments, although admittedly Orban has put more of his intolerance into practice.

They're also both arguably on the far right of the political spectrum. We have the most right wing government in our history, that's not something to be proud of in the era of Trump, Bolsonaro etc. 

We even have a Home Secretary that supports capital punishment, something that's completely outlawed in the EU.

As for Hitchens, he's spent most of his life arguing that the Conservative Party aren't right wing enough. Some of his positions are an absolute joke, like drug policy for example, a fact free zone as far as he is concerned.

Johnson argued for an amnesty on illegal immigration when he was Mayor, is that far right?

Edited June 6, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[Staffsknot]

1 minute ago, debtlessmanc said:

Sorry i feel i need to jumo in again, My wife and I met the CEO of the CRT at a lock on the Staff and Worcs 4 years ago, Total T**t was having a photo opportunity trying to get a boat into a lock, smashed the lock gates several times and then wanted ,y wife to be photo'd with him on the lock gates. If he was a remainer, he was a total idiot.

And that means sweet FA to be honest - I'm going to be frank that is a pointless anecdote about a personality - sorry but that adds FA value.

EU paid for canals but who cares the CRT bloke is a tool so means nothing...

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

And that means sweet FA to be honest - I'm going to be frank that is a pointless anecdote about a personality - sorry but that adds FA value.

EU paid for canals but who cares the CRT bloke is a tool so means nothing...

Give me a link to evidence that the EU funded the UK narrow canal system