Si1 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 32 minutes ago, Sour Mash said: There's never a shortage of money for banker bailouts or wars. Because the credit crunch was just the same as (checks notes) the Russian full scale invasion of a neighbouring peaceful country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 On 11/01/2024 at 12:19, Dyson Fury said: Many of the convicted postmasters want their false convictions to be individually overturned after a review of the evidence against them, not to be pardoned or exonerated in a blanket procedure. A blanket exoneration will run the risk of a few genuinely guilty fraudsters not just having their convictions overturned, but receiving a large amount in financial compensation. Whilst it would be undesirable to exonerate and provide compensation to a genuinely guilty fraudster, how much of a concern is this in the present context? Let's say a postmaster stole £100,000 and might stand to receive £600,000 compensation. That would be a total ill-gotten gain of £700,000 and a total cost to everyone else of £700,000. Compare that to Paula Vennells, for example. She has received more than £700,000 in bonuses (in part due to the wrongful convictions) and her decisions have probably led to hundred of millions of additional costs to everyone else (consider how much lower the cost of compensation and legal fees and enquiries etc. would be if she hadn't knowingly covered up the fraud for almost a decade). If a small proportion of guilty postmasters are wrongly exonerated, the monetary cost is small. Moreover, the cost of reviewing all the cases would exceed the amount of true fraud uncovered. And this doesn't send a message to postmasters or other ordinary people that fraud is likely to go unpunished. The treatment of postmasters over the course of the scandal demonstrates the severe consequences. But if the senior figures within the Post Office are not convicted, the consequences seem much more significant. Executives, lawyers and some other senior figures could reasonably be fined much more than £700,000 each. Even if they do not faces fines and only have some of their bonuses clawed back or pensions forfeited, that is likely to go into the millions. Perhaps more significantly, if they aren't convicted, this sends a message to other senior figures in other organisations that they won't suffer any consequences if they are involved in similar fraudulent activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) FT reports Royal Mail may be insolvent Historically Royal Mail have deducted any compensation payments made in the year before Calculating the tax for the year. This is not correct and is likely to have understated the Corporation tax they were due in any given year, Overstating profits and will coincidentally have had the effect of increasing executives bonuses (which were profit driven) Dan Neidle, who is featured heavily on the Property 118 thread, says the post office may be insolvent now if the analysis is correct. https://www.ft.com/content/cfdf7fc1-e845-48b5-ad3d-fbce228386f4 The Post Office claimed tax relief on compensation it paid to victims of the postmasters scandal, sparking warnings that it risks a £100mn bill and insolvency if authorities rule the move unlawful. Dan Neidle, tax lawyer and founder of Tax Policy Associates, estimated that if HM Revenue & Customs ruled against the Post Office, it could have “underpaid corporation tax by over £100mn, and may no longer be solvent”. The think-tank said that the tax treatment might have caused the Post Office to report artificially high profits, potentially boosting executive bonuses. Edited January 12 by regprentice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 An interesting article here in The Register - How Governments become addicted to suppliers like Fujitsu. Listing a variety of large government contracts awarded despite poor performance or issues. This includes another contract renewed for Fujitsu, for which no other vendor was considered, despite them losing almost half a million police evidence records the year before which had almost caused Boris Johnson to resign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord D'arcy Pew Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) The Post Office were charging Sub-Postmaster with false accounting, yet it may well be themselves that should be serving a seven year stretch. See the underlined sections below. (1) Where a person dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another,— (a) destroys, defaces, conceals or falsifies any account or any record or document made or required for any accounting purpose; or (b) in furnishing information for any purpose produces or makes use of any account, or any such record or document as aforesaid, which to his knowledge is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular; he shall, on conviction on indictment, be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years. (2) For purposes of this section a person who makes or concurs in making in an account or other document an entry which is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular, or who omits or concurs in omitting a material particular from an account or other document, is to be treated as falsifying the account or document Edited January 13 by Lord D'arcy Pew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 A case this morning where evidence from Horizon of a subpostmasters shortfalls was used as the main (circumstantial) evidence im a murder conviction. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder Post office owner says Horizon system was used to frame him for wife’s murder Garbutt has always insisted a man wearing a balaclava and holding a gun made him hand over £16,000 cash, claiming they “had” his wife. He said he handed over the cash and then ran upstairs, to find Diana dead. He was found guilty at trial in 2011 on the basis of circumstantial evidence, with the jury split 10-2, a majority verdict. With no DNA evidence to link him to the murder or the metal bar used to kill Diana, Garbutt was convicted in part after the jury heard evidence from a Post Office investigator using data from the Horizon system. This purportedly showed he was stealing money from the Post Office and then killed his wife to cover up his theft. The prosecution claimed Garbutt concealed his theft via a series of false declarations about the amount of money in the Post Office safe. The investigator told the jury the pattern of high overnight cash declarations was one “I have seen replicated across many Post Office Limited fraud cases in the past”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 hours ago, Lord D'arcy Pew said: The Post Office were charging Sub-Postmaster with false accounting, yet it may well be themselves that should be serving a seven year stretch. See the underlined sections below. (1) Where a person dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another,— (a) destroys, defaces, conceals or falsifies any account or any record or document made or required for any accounting purpose; or (b) in furnishing information for any purpose produces or makes use of any account, or any such record or document as aforesaid, which to his knowledge is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular; he shall, on conviction on indictment, be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years. (2) For purposes of this section a person who makes or concurs in making in an account or other document an entry which is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular, or who omits or concurs in omitting a material particular from an account or other document, is to be treated as falsifying the account or document The post office have been engaged in blackmail, racketeering, and fraud (just to name a few!). Thing is though the post office is as we know owned by the government! No wonder Ed Davey didn't want to get involved! As the judge said they have behaved like the mafia. From the drama - men turn up in black cars and proceed to threaten the sub postmaster, pay up or else! Southern England mind you, not Southern Italy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erat_forte Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Interesting article from Chris Grey about parallels between the Post Office scandal and the EU settlement scheme scandal - both involving IT bugs, and a culture of bullying / cover ups / bureaucracy applying its own rules wrongly or incompetently. https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-scandal-of-settlement-scheme-for-eu.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andytgt Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 This is fantastic: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67954810 It is not my area but I honestly would be voting for her if it was. Even if not against Ed Davey if in my constituency there is a wrongly convicted sub postmaster hoping to get justice for what happened they have my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 What if the post office is now bankrupt, what private entity will snap it up for little.....most basic banking facilities now done at post offices now banks are closing en mass and ATMs being taken away...... Or will this be the excuse to do away with cash completely?.....bankers dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, Andytgt said: This is fantastic: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67954810 It is not my area but I honestly would be voting for her if it was. Even if not against Ed Davey if in my constituency there is a wrongly convicted sub postmaster hoping to get justice for what happened they have my vote. That's a very fair point. The Sub Postmasters Party could be the new political force we're looking for. Edited January 13 by Si1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANG Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 (edited) Grit your teeth and jail this ba5tard - Rob Wilson he knew all along that Horizon was defective. Shamed Post Office law chief said the firm should 'grit its teeth and get on with prosecuting people' after he suppressed an investigation into its faulty IT system to protect the firm | Daily Mail Online Edited January 13 by FANG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 25 minutes ago, FANG said: Grit your teeth and jail this ******* Shamed Post Office law chief said the firm should 'grit its teeth and get on with prosecuting people' after he suppressed an investigation into its faulty IT system to protect the firm | Daily Mail Online Certainly did a great job of protecting the Post Office’s reputation 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 13 minutes ago, MarkD said: Certainly did a great job of protecting the Post Office’s reputation 🤣🤣🤣 People like this just don't think two steps ahead their entire life seems to be one big ass covering exercise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 One thing I want to know is what Labour's plans (if any) are for reforming safeguards on private prosecutions. The House of Commons Justice Select Committee produced a report with some proposals in October 2020 in light of the Post Office prosecutions. The background is that the Crown Prosecution Service can't cope and HM Government are OK with private prosecutions (mostly for things like shoplifting, by companies) making a comeback from their decline since the formation of the CPS in 1986. HM Gov initially planned to do nothing, then when the Post Office situation became too politically loud proposed some actions, but these won't happen before the General Election. After that it will probably be (Sir) Kier's problem. What will he do? Answers on a postcard please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Will! said: One thing I want to know is what Labour's plans (if any) are for reforming safeguards on private prosecutions. The House of Commons Justice Select Committee produced a report with some proposals in October 2020 in light of the Post Office prosecutions. The background is that the Crown Prosecution Service can't cope and HM Government are OK with private prosecutions (mostly for things like shoplifting, by companies) making a comeback from their decline since the formation of the CPS in 1986. HM Gov initially planned to do nothing, then when the Post Office situation became too politically loud proposed some actions, but these won't happen before the General Election. After that it will probably be (Sir) Kier's problem. What will he do? Answers on a postcard please. You're assuming Sir Kier will actually make it to the election. First it was he wasn't involved, then it was there were 11 cases during his time, now it's 99 cases. Has he got something to hide? It looks to me like he's trying his best to distance himself from the scandal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightowl Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 12 hours ago, regprentice said: A case this morning where evidence from Horizon of a subpostmasters shortfalls was used as the main (circumstantial) evidence im a murder conviction. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder Post office owner says Horizon system was used to frame him for wife’s murder Garbutt has always insisted a man wearing a balaclava and holding a gun made him hand over £16,000 cash, claiming they “had” his wife. He said he handed over the cash and then ran upstairs, to find Diana dead. He was found guilty at trial in 2011 on the basis of circumstantial evidence, with the jury split 10-2, a majority verdict. With no DNA evidence to link him to the murder or the metal bar used to kill Diana, Garbutt was convicted in part after the jury heard evidence from a Post Office investigator using data from the Horizon system. This purportedly showed he was stealing money from the Post Office and then killed his wife to cover up his theft. The prosecution claimed Garbutt concealed his theft via a series of false declarations about the amount of money in the Post Office safe. The investigator told the jury the pattern of high overnight cash declarations was one “I have seen replicated across many Post Office Limited fraud cases in the past”. Imagine serving on a jury where the main, if not sole, piece of evidence comes from computer software. How wound anyone now cosider this evidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnow Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I worked for the post office back in the 90s. I had a wallet and cheque book stolen from my car. The cheque book was with Girobank, the bank of Post Office. I was accused of being the thief from my own car by two ex cops employed by the Post office . They were frightening bullies. I had to sign a copy of each cheque used to say it was not me "so that I would get jail time". I can only imagine what nightmares these postmasters went through at the hands of similar thugs, such as we have all seen now on our tvs. Guilty until proven innocent. I cannot wait for these thugs to pay a heavy price. Starting at the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Orange Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 5 minutes ago, notnow said: I worked for the post office back in the 90s. I had a wallet and cheque book stolen from my car. The cheque book was with Girobank, the bank of Post Office. I was accused of being the thief from my own car by two ex cops employed by the Post office . They were frightening bullies. Probably rejects, since even the regular police thought they were authoritarian loonies! And with such a toxic, ingrained internal culture of victim blaming, even if the Horizon network operated flawlessesly, the Post Office psychos in upper management would've found other ways to 'eff up the careers and lives of their minions... Edited January 14 by Big Orange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 I'm sure someone else has pointed out that this is a full scale conspiracy that cuts across all the major political parties. If this is true (which it is), what else might be tue? Cue lots of posts about mad hat conspiracy theories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Not surprising that dishonest, selfish and corrupt people think others are like them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 9 hours ago, Timm said: I'm sure someone else has pointed out that this is a full scale conspiracy that cuts across all the major political parties. If this is true (which it is), what else might be tue? Cue lots of posts about mad hat conspiracy theories. The journo uncovering most of it thinks it's just semi competent ass covering from often thick corporate types who are mostly too criminally stupid to realise it's immorality and illegality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12962755/ex-post-office-boss-Paula-Vennells-insider-verdict.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) The Post Office was already mired in the Horizon IT scandal when its deeply- religious chief executive, Reverend Paula Vennells, agreed to take part in a panel discussion about business ethics. ADVERTISEMENT The talk, attended by City firm executives, was held at London's Canary Wharf in May 2018. Apparently undeterred by the crisis unfolding on her watch – and certainly making no mention of it – Ms Vennells declared herself 'proud of the Post Office… a really special organisation in terms of its values'. After explaining how her values came 'from the glory of God', she turned to the subject of making mistakes. 'When we mess up, which we do every day,' she told the audience, 'my faith tells me that I can be forgiven, that shortfalls are a perfectly human thing to do and that I can always start again; always, always, always, start again. You can put things right. 'And for me, I found that very liberating because… you can get it wrong and you can move on.' ----- As for Ms Vennells herself, the source found her to be 'dim' and 'over-promoted' and 'like dealing with a mosquito'. 'If you're going to take that top job with the bucks that go with it, you'd better be as sharp as a tack. And she wasn't.' Edited January 16 by Si1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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