Mass changes to UK immigration requirements

[iamnumerate]

1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

Not from the EU there weren't (which is what we're really talking about here):

I knew EU immigrants in 99 who had been given nice housing.  There was lots of non EU immigrants then (many of those who I knew, also got given nicer housing that I could afford).

[mattyboy1973]

The real question is whether this will end up targeting workers we actually need, or whether it is just a way for companies to bring in cheaper labour than that which is available locally. It will almost certainly be the latter, and I notice that the points are awarded primarily on the basis of a job offer and a degree. If they do use the points system that they have published today, then e.g. an IT worker with a degree can be brought in no questions asked on the basis of a job offer > £25,600, regardless of whether or not local resources are available. This new system might be pretty good for unskilled wages locally, but it is potentially devastating for professionals such as accountants and those in IT (if their work hasn't already been fully off-shored).

[Chunketh]

31 minutes ago, MancTom said:

Are you sure there are actually enough people fully on benefits capable of working to replace all the immigrants being sent home?

Maybe not...You cant compel people to work when they don't require a handout to bully them into it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51560120

[Andy T]

8 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51560120 interesting

interesting why?

Some of that group will want to work. And a big chunk of that group that are currently students, they will not stay students forever, I think that's the point.

Too many going into further education, some as a stopgap as there is little else to go into, when really many of them should have the opportunity to go into highly skilled, technical apprenticeships, emerging industries, not just the lip service to 'apprenticeship training' that we've had in the last few years.

[mattyboy1973]

5 hours ago, Will! said:

I doubt many people would have a problem with 100,000 rocket scientists and brain surgeons (for example) from outside the EU compared to tens of thousands of car washers and baristas from inside the EU.

I guess it depends on whether or not you are a rocket scientist. 100,000 newly arrived rocket scientists willing to live 5 to a house and work for 1/5 of your current pay doesn't sound so good.

[iamnumerate]

2 hours ago, jonb2 said:

There are far, far better countries than here for such people.

Who wants to come to a place now stamped with xenophobia as its trademark?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48692863

Plus, science works on global cooperation. It's essential.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/08/top-scientists-accuse-boris-johnson-of-behaving-like-a-clown-over-research-funding

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/after-brexit-uk-scientists-face-long-road-mend-ties-europe

Nope. Weapons, money-laundering, asset-stripping and property is all we've got. There are no plans for anything else.

Immigrants are far more likely to be killed in the name of Islam than racism.

[Chunketh]

3 minutes ago, Andy T said:

interesting why?

Some of that group will want to work. And a big chunk of that group that are currently students, they will not stay students forever, I think that's the point.

Too many going into further education, some as a stopgap as there is little else to go into, when really many of them should have the opportunity to go into highly skilled, technical apprenticeships, emerging industries, not just the lip service to 'apprenticeship training' that we've had in the last few years.

At least the crippling student debt will be forgiven if they are all forced to work shit jobs for the rest of their lives.

[debtlessmanc]

2 hours ago, jonb2 said:

There are far, far better countries than here for such people.

Who wants to come to a place now stamped with xenophobia as its trademark?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48692863

Plus, science works on global cooperation. It's essential.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/08/top-scientists-accuse-boris-johnson-of-behaving-like-a-clown-over-research-funding

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/after-brexit-uk-scientists-face-long-road-mend-ties-europe

Nope. Weapons, money-laundering, asset-stripping and property is all we've got. There are no plans for anything else.

There are 12 universities in QS rankings top 50 in the world, 12 in Europe - 11 in the UK/Switzerland 1 in the EU (at number 50)

the UK academic salaries (as of now) are also the 4th highest in the world (after switzerland, australia and NL).

https://naibuzz.com/10-countries-with-the-highest-professor-salaries-in-the-world/

Certainly a spanish researcher of mine just took up a post in the UK after being offered double the salary that a spanish university was offering.

Education is the going to become a very important industry for the uk actually, step daughter has just got a job at a very famous UK public school, apparently an appreciable number of students arrive by private jet in september!

Edited February 19, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[Chunketh]

3 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Immigrants are far more likely to be killed in the name of Islam than racism.

I very much doubt that is true

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/racial-violence/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/many-people-killed-terrorist-attacks-uk/

 

[debtlessmanc]

edited as unhelpful!

Edited February 19, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[iamnumerate]

Just now, Chunketh said:

I very much doubt that is true

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/racial-violence/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/many-people-killed-terrorist-attacks-uk/

 

Sorry since the Brexit vote more EU citizens have been killed by Islamist terrorists than racists.

Two were killed in Westminster

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack

4 London Bridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Casualties

2 Manchester

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing#Casualties

Have 8 EU citizens been killed by racists since 2016? - I really hope not.

 

 

[iamnumerate]

5 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

okay - but it is not always minorities that are the victims

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kriss_Donald

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ross_Parker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Richard_Everitt

Thanks for that.  I had never heard of Richard Everitt, an awful case.

[Chunketh]

13 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Sorry since the Brexit vote more EU citizens have been killed by Islamist terrorists than racists.

Two were killed in Westminster

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack

4 London Bridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack#Casualties

2 Manchester

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing#Casualties

Have 8 EU citizens been killed by racists since 2016? - I really hope not.

 

 

105 over the 20 year period of 1993-2013, so 5 a year by those numbers. I cant find anything from 2016 onward but given that race hate crimes have skyrocketted since 2016 I doubt that the number of murders have fallen.

Based on the homicide rate of 1.2 per 100k residents you would expect 38 EU citizens to be murdered every year, regardless of motive. Its not much of a stretch to think that 15 of the estimated 115 were racially motivated over a 3 year period.

 

 

[iamnumerate]

9 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

105 over the 20 year period of 1993-2013, so 5 a year by those numbers. I cant find anything from 2016 onward but given that race hate crimes have skyrocketted since 2016 I doubt that the number of murders have fallen.

Based on the homicide rate of 1.2 per 100k residents you would expect 38 EU citizens to be murdered every year, regardless of motive. Its not much of a stretch to think that 15 of the estimated 115 were racially motivated over a 3 year period.

 

 

But none have been reported have they?  I am pretty sure that they would have been.

We can only look at murders where we know the motive - and that shows that Islam is more likely to kill an EU immigrant than Brexit.

(Considering there are a lot more Brexit voters than Muslims - this is worrying)

[scottbeard]

51 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I knew EU immigrants in 99 who had been given nice housing.  There was lots of non EU immigrants then (many of those who I knew, also got given nicer housing that I could afford).

I'm not sure what you're driving at with the line...do you just want me to edit my reference to "it worked OK before 2004" to "it worked OK before 1998"?

I don't honestly know who was coming here from 1998-2003 so I can't really comment on whether I think that was positive or negative.  

The point I was trying to get at is I'm not that bothered about Australian nurses, or Indian IT specialists, coming to the UK and adding value with their skills.  But it doesn't make sense for unskilled Polish youngsters to come over and work in bars or cafes (because, as clearly demostrated before 2004, we CAN resource this in the UK).

It's not about whether they are EU or non-EU per se (and certainly not about race) it's about whether they are skilled in areas we are short of, or not.  It just has TENDED to be that since 2004 there has been a sharp increase in unskilled migrants that I don't recall prior that.

[debtlessmanc]

If you want a good laugh look at the comments underneath an article about this in the french press

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/le-gouvernement-britannique-devoile-son-systeme-d-immigration-post-brexit-20200218

i would say roughly 2/3rds are along the lines of "why can't France do this?"

Edited February 19, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[iamnumerate]

10 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

I'm not sure what you're driving at with the line...do you just want me to edit my reference to "it worked OK before 2004" to "it worked OK before 1998"?

I don't honestly know who was coming here from 1998-2003 so I can't really comment on whether I think that was positive or negative.  

The point I was trying to get at is I'm not that bothered about Australian nurses, or Indian IT specialists, coming to the UK and adding value with their skills.  But it doesn't make sense for unskilled Polish youngsters to come over and work in bars or cafes (because, as clearly demostrated before 2004, we CAN resource this in the UK).

It's not about whether they are EU or non-EU per se (and certainly not about race) it's about whether they are skilled in areas we are short of, or not.  It just has TENDED to be that since 2004 there has been a sharp increase in unskilled migrants that I don't recall prior that.

My point is that the problem started sooner than you think.

I would change your reference to "it worked more or less o before 1997, although even then we were still too generous"

(I actually know people who came here in the 80s or early 90s and got free housing - but obviously a lower scale).

I would not disagree with the rest of your post.

[scottbeard]

7 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

My point is that the problem started sooner than you think.

I would change your reference to "it worked more or less o before 1997, although even then we were still too generous"

(I actually know people who came here in the 80s or early 90s and got free housing - but obviously a lower scale).

I would not disagree with the rest of your post.

OK, fair enough

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Immigrants are far more likely to be killed in the name of Islam than racism.

Death is a very small proportion of racist attacks. Everyday we see shit like this.

https://www.weareresonate.com/2020/02/coronavirus-chink-racist-man-hospitalises-woman-for-defending-her-chinese-female-friend-in-birmingham-ana-rocha-bar-gallery/

Since Brexit, hate crimes have increased 20-30% depending on who you read. I ask again, WTF would anybody want to come here?

[iamnumerate]

4 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Death is a very small proportion of racist attacks. Everyday we see shit like this.

https://www.weareresonate.com/2020/02/coronavirus-chink-racist-man-hospitalises-woman-for-defending-her-chinese-female-friend-in-birmingham-ana-rocha-bar-gallery/

Since Brexit, hate crimes have increased 20-30% depending on who you read. I ask again, WTF would anybody want to come here?

But murder is much easier to prove has happened so more relevant.

My wife is not white and apart from one (not white) boy telling her off for not speaking English in the street (he got a shock when I had a go at him) - she has never had any problems.

She has had severe delays to her journey home caused by Islamic terrorism though.

Edited February 19, 2020 by iamnumerate

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

There are 12 universities in QS rankings top 50 in the world, 12 in Europe - 11 in the UK/Switzerland 1 in the EU (at number 50)

the UK academic salaries (as of now) are also the 4th highest in the world (after switzerland, australia and NL).

https://naibuzz.com/10-countries-with-the-highest-professor-salaries-in-the-world/

Certainly a spanish researcher of mine just took up a post in the UK after being offered double the salary that a spanish university was offering.

Education is the going to become a very important industry for the uk actually, step daughter has just got a job at a very famous UK public school, apparently an appreciable number of students arrive by private jet in september!

My son teaches at a well-know private school. So I know this to be true. But super-rich foreigners sending their off-spring to be educated here is quite an exclusive club with not much retention of advantage - as eventually they will go home to use their new-found skills.

But that is not what I was arguing about. I was arguing on two things:

1) Science will suffer

2) The reputation of the country for tolerance has gone down the drain.

[Riedquat]

3 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

2) The reputation of the country for tolerance has gone down the drain.

That's certainly true. It's very starkly illustrated by all the closed-minded bigotry from the more loudmouthed Remainers.

[winkie]

2 hours ago, mallish said:

 I think that society has  duty to support and look after it's indigenous people who cannot work due to ill physical or mental health.

It does not have any responsibility for migrants who move to a country who are already unable to work due to illness or who are unable to work because they do not have the required job skills or language skills or who can only do low paid jobs that are insufficient to m,eet housing and nutritional needs.  

I think that anyone who can work and is unemployed should be offered jobs that are available, if they refuse to take the job their benefits stop at once.  Society does not have a duty to support people who are lazy and idle.  Let them rot.  

Not all would agree, wages would then drop even lower, slave labour......they might not be able to do the jobs that are available......might not be because they are lazy or idle, they might be sick, they might have a good day and then a bad day......no employee wants to work with people in the same business that do not want to be there, they are better off not being there because it spoils the atmosphere of a working environment........very many jobs now do not pay enough to pay housing and nutritional needs.....?

[jonb2]

3 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

But murder is much easier to prove has happened so more relevant.

My wife is not white and apart from one (not white) boy telling her off for not speaking English (he got a shock when I had a go at him) - she has never had any problems.

She has had severe delays to her journey home caused by Islamic terrorism though.

Assault is as easy as murder to prove and much more common.

I bet she has had more delays due to Tory terrorism than Islamic. ?

 

[slawek]

1 hour ago, Andy T said:

How so?  negative, as in lower (more realistic) profits for those businesses currently exploiting unskilled low wages/illegal employment and poor working conditions?  tough shit.

 

Most of those business will go bust, they exists only because of cheap labour. It would be cheaper to import their products or demand would reduce because of higher prices. Additionally less people means lower GDP if not countered by increased productivity or working time.

I think there is a little chance for the UK to suddenly become a highly efficient and modern economy with hard working and highly skilled workforce. This is a slow process which requires highly motivated people. It should start with children keen on learning maths, science, technology. However there is no chance for this, kids are more interested in being celebrities, there is no ethos of learning,  there are no right teachers. In the UK it is much easier to make money on properties than any productive activity. Taxation system is set up to punish working people.