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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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56 minutes ago, Locke said:

Good. 

Not a case of being good or not, it is who benefits and who does not in the system designed that all will be a part of......good for some will be bad for others and visa versa.....people will change and adapt to follow the flow of money, not all good people have access to it, many good people will not......what is "good"??

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8 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Precisely - "but who will work in my restaurant for slave wages without people from the EU?"

Well, you have to pay proper wages.

If doing so puts you out of business then, frankly, that's probably a good thing.  Why do I say that?  Well, if your restaurant can only survive by paying slave wages and robbing Poland and Romania of all their young people it's probably a good thing overall for the human race for it to close, and let those people do something else.

More people eat out now because eating out can be cheap, not always good though.....many skills like cooking and baking, home economics, DIY or even caring for children and elderly family members we now pay others on low wages to do for us, two jobs for what used to be one......going backwards or some might say forwards means many of us will be learning new skills and doing more for ourselves = fewer paid jobs required.?

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9 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

Needing to be able to speak English, needing to be educated to at least A level or equivalent, having skills we need not ones like painting nails we don't and being paid enough to not end up on tax credits and housing benefit to pay the bills.

I see no issue at al with anyone who wants to live here having to speak good English.  My company had a guy from Eastern Europe sent by a company top do some small stuff like putting up shelves, changing doors.  We had to send him away as he could not understand or speak a work of English so could not understand what we are asking him to do.  

9 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

Less cheap unskilled labour -  higher wages for local unskilled labour? Remember the days when Labour cared about the working classes?

Sadly no I do not - they have for am long time been focused on students, council workers and immigrants.  

7 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

And yes - their rules on access for skilled migrants to healthcare and welfare are tough!  But if the Aussie people don't like the policies they can change the government - inside the EU you have very limited control and cannot deny equal access to welfare and healthcare for newly arrived migrants compared to citizens

Agreed - if it does not work the govt can change it

3 hours ago, rollover said:

Jobs like cleaners, catering jobs, building jobs, careers, delivery drivers, cab drivers .... etc.

UK natives doesn't want to do this kind of jobs. The problem is low salary and high accommodation costs.

There are plenty of UK natives who are unemployed - if they do not want to do those jobs they should lose any benefits.  

1 hour ago, winkie said:

There is not enough demand in the economy to pay the wages required for full employment for all those that want it.....many things are now automated, labour and brains are expensive.

Agreed - people seem to have their head in the sand about the enormous effect AI and robotics will have.  Every week jobs are lost to automation.  All of the big companies who announce a restructure are replacing at least some jobs with automation.  It will kill ,low skilled and admin jobs.  

54 minutes ago, Locke said:
2 hours ago, winkie said:

.things we have got used to being cheap will be increasing in price, or we will have to be doing more of the jobs ourselves, learn how to decorate and cook.

Good. 

Agreed again - I am amazed at the number of people who cannot change a car tyre, a plug, paint a wall.  

40 minutes ago, Will! said:

I doubt many people would have a problem with 100,000 rocket scientists and brain surgeons (for example) from outside the EU compared to tens of thousands of car washers and baristas from inside the EU.

Agreed totally - my own GP is a Pakistani gentleman, speaks English with an accent like Terry Thomas, is highly educated, pays a lot of tax, does not need housing or unemployment benefit. Is an |Arsenal fan so as a Spurs fan we always have a bit of banter.    I would not want any other GP.  

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10 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

Needing to be able to speak English, needing to be educated to at least A level or equivalent, having skills we need not ones like painting nails we don't and being paid enough to not end up on tax credits and housing benefit to pay the bills.

Who is going to clean DIane Abbott's house so cheaply - or undercut the local established plumbers (cash in hand for a discount anyone?) when Keir Starmer needs a new bathroom installed. Who is going to make my grande caramel spiced latte machiatto with almond milk, two shots and cream on top? 

Its an outrage I tell you an outrage!

:)  oldie but goodie

 

 

 

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Mallish on your point re speaking English there are hundreds of millions of people - over 1 billion - across the world from India to Singapore to Malaysia to much of Africa to the Philippines to the Caribbean to generally educated people globally within and outside the EU who have good spoken and written English.

So there is a big pool we can call on first - if someone is desperate to come here it would make sense for them to learn it first. Cos if you can’t communicate with customers or patients or colleagues you can’t really do the job properly.

Edited by MARTINX9
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11 hours ago, maffo in oxford said:

Tomorrows headlines.

 

  •  
  • No access to benefits or free NHS for migrants who have lived in UK for less than five years.
  •  

I think the bit about no treatment is a bit mean - no benefits is spot on though, I would say no benefits until paying a reasonable amount of tax.

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1 hour ago, MARTINX9 said:

What do we need more of - car washers and nail bar workers from eastern Europe or doctors and engineers from anywhere else in the world. The former have a legal right to move here at present and up to 31 December at least - whether we think they add net value to the nation financially or not - the latter have to go through hoops to do so.

In the end Australia, NZ and Canada could make those figures zero at any time by tightening or changing the rules - or as NZ did following recent earthquakes increase visas for skilled builders and tradesmen. Our elected government decides.

That's the beauty of it - we have an immigration system where our government decides who comes here reflecting our needs and requirements. Inside the EU we had no real control at all over who comes or not - skilled or unskilled - and whether they were eligible for welfare or free healthcare from day 1. But from 1 Jan 2021 we choose who comes here - the person doesn't choose us. That means we can also plan numbers too - in terms of the impact on housing, school places, the NHS and other services.

I think the term being taking back control - where we judge people equally based on their skills not the colour of their passport. And we can vote out the people who set those rules - which we could never do in the EU.

 

I'm not going to rerun the last four years, but we could have had some control on the numbers (like Belgium do to some degree), but we chose not to...then Blair opened the floodgates in 2004, and that was that..

Therefore we are looking to attract a "better migrant"....If people are expecting the numbers to drop (so that traffic on the roads reduce, the building on green land stops,  and so on), I think they'll be disappointed..

When Boris and co make a real horlicks of Brexit, and we get trapped into some strange association agreement, I wonder if free movement will come in, via the back door...

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14 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

I think the bit about no treatment is a bit mean - no benefits is spot on though, I would say no benefits until paying a reasonable amount of tax.

Almost all other countries will expect you to take out private medical insurance until you are settled and have started paying in.

No one would be denying emergency care but the NHS isn’t intended for the world but UK nationals and established permanent residents. No point importing a highly skilled person who can’t work due to having a chronic or life limiting illness and thus costs the NHS big time - as the NHS provides free at the point of use care when they would have to pay or have insurance in their home nation.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but it’s the national health service not the international health service. It’s exactly how Brits moving to most of the rest of the world are treated!

Of course alternatively I am happy to apply a special tax on left wing liberal middle class Londoners to provide free healthcare to the globe - a Mansion tax perhaps?

Edited by MARTINX9
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Just now, Dave Beans said:

Therefore we are looking to attract a "better migrant"....If people are expecting the numbers to drop (so that traffic on the roads reduce, the building on green land stops,  and so on), I think they'll be disappointed..

Hope rather than expect - we've got here as part of the long game to make politicians face up to reality and responsibility and stop just that. Some battles have been won but the war hasn't yet, I think most people realise that.

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27 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

I'm not going to rerun the last four years, but we could have had some control on the numbers (like Belgium do to some degree), but we chose not to...then Blair opened the floodgates in 2004, and that was that..

Therefore we are looking to attract a "better migrant"....If people are expecting the numbers to drop (so that traffic on the roads reduce, the building on green land stops,  and so on), I think they'll be disappointed..

When Boris and co make a real horlicks of Brexit, and we get trapped into some strange association agreement, I wonder if free movement will come in, via the back door...

Looking to attract a better migrant while saving all the shitwork for ourselves.

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23 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

Almost all other countries will expect you to take out private medical insurance until you are settled and have started paying in.

No one would be denying emergency care but the NHS isn’t intended for the world but UK nationals and established permanent residents. No point importing a highly skilled person who can’t work due to having a chronic or life limiting illness and thus costs the NHS big time - as the NHS provides free at the point of use care when they would have to pay or have insurance in their home nation.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but it’s the national health service not the international health service. It’s exactly how Brits moving to most of the rest of the world are treated!

Of course alternatively I am happy to apply a special tax on left wing liberal middle class Londoners to provide free healthcare to the globe - a Mansion tax perhaps?

Fair points.

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12 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Looking to attract a better migrant while saving all the shitwork for ourselves.

A country that can't manage its ordinary, routine jobs is a country that's not in a viable position anyway. There shouldn't ever be any need for anything other than uncommon specialist jobs to move around, at least on a routine business.

And a country that's already got more people than it ever has but still seems to think it needs more has utterly lost the plot, unless it's a new colony on uninhabited land, which certainly isn't the case.

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46 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

I'm not going to rerun the last four years, but we could have had some control on the numbers (like Belgium do to some degree), but we chose not to...then Blair opened the floodgates in 2004, and that was that..

Therefore we are looking to attract a "better migrant"....If people are expecting the numbers to drop (so that traffic on the roads reduce, the building on green land stops,  and so on), I think they'll be disappointed..

When Boris and co make a real horlicks of Brexit, and we get trapped into some strange association agreement, I wonder if free movement will come in, via the back door...

Agree about we did have control but chose not to use it, like for years we had control over what Romanians and Bulgarians could do for work.....other EU countries do not give other EU citizens rights to benefits or health cover the day they enter the country and nothing if not putting into the system......you get out of it what you put into it.....?

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2 hours ago, scottbeard said:

Precisely - "but who will work in my restaurant for slave wages without people from the EU?"

Well, you have to pay proper wages.

If doing so puts you out of business then, frankly, that's probably a good thing.  Why do I say that?  Well, if your restaurant can only survive by paying slave wages and robbing Poland and Romania of all their young people it's probably a good thing overall for the human race for it to close, and let those people do something else.

+1 

all business that are not setup to pay a decent wage should be left to fail same with the nhs too. wages are pathetic skilled or not compared to living costs. 

i had a phone interview couple of weeks back and the guy at the end of the phone stated you may have to work over 40hrs per week and we would usually give you time off in lieu.  i asked him what usually meant and the answer was if it happens a lot in a busy week.  

why not just give a contract 37.5 hrs and anything else is paid overtime The guy was not happy with my answer. sounds like they would have wanted me to sign away the working directive of hours worked per per week. NO thanks. 

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1 hour ago, Dave Beans said:

I'm not going to rerun the last four years, but we could have had some control on the numbers (like Belgium do to some degree), but we chose not to...then Blair opened the floodgates in 2004, and that was that..

Therefore we are looking to attract a "better migrant"....If people are expecting the numbers to drop (so that traffic on the roads reduce, the building on green land stops,  and so on), I think they'll be disappointed..

When Boris and co make a real horlicks of Brexit, and we get trapped into some strange association agreement, I wonder if free movement will come in, via the back door...

Unless we end our non contributory benefits system with tax credits and housing benefit - which no government has had the guts to do - backed by proper checks of what EU migrants are doing here - which we don’t have the systems for - bluntly we couldn’t.

The same pro EU types making your argument are also the first to cry outrage at even simple reforms to tax credits. The EU required Scotland to provide free university tuition for all EU national - except of course for English, Welsh and NI residents!

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19 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

A country that can't manage its ordinary, routine jobs is a country that's not in a viable position anyway. There shouldn't ever be any need for anything other than uncommon specialist jobs to move around, at least on a routine business.

Exactly - go right back to the same situation that seemed to work perfectly well for decades upon decades right up until 2004: the only people who move countries are either niche specialists or people who do so for reasons completely unrelated to work and earnings (such as marrying someone from another country, or deciding that they fit in better with a different culture).

Solving the problem of Poland and Romania having low wages by uprooting millions of people half way across Europe, only to undercut the wages of British people could only ever be a temporary solution - Brexit just puts a stop to it a few years earlier than it would have to stop anyway (as wages across the EU began to converge).

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5 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Exactly - go right back to the same situation that seemed to work perfectly well for decades upon decades right up until 2004: the only people who move countries are either niche specialists or people who do so for reasons completely unrelated to work and earnings (such as marrying someone from another country, or deciding that they fit in better with a different culture).

Solving the problem of Poland and Romania having low wages by uprooting millions of people half way across Europe, only to undercut the wages of British people could only ever be a temporary solution - Brexit just puts a stop to it a few years earlier than it would have to stop anyway (as wages across the EU began to converge).

Mass immigration started before 2004.  There were a lot of people coming here from the late 90s.

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19 minutes ago, Si1 said:

This could be wage-inflationary

Yes we couldn’t allow poorer unskilled  people to earn more - we are the Labour Party. They might get above themselves and stop voting Labour - and we lose our jobs and pensions as MPs!

Seriously though the EU has had the lowest growth of any part of the world in  the last decade. Australia, NZ and Canada seem to do just fine with this system - people from all over the world are desperate to move to those nations. And despite the anti Britain sentiments on the tedious Brexit thread on this forum - move on folks - lots also want to come here too and many sadly risk their lives to do so.

Edited by MARTINX9
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I can't see that anyone in this thread has linked this to housing???  We are competing and bidding against each other for scare decent housing. Immigration levels should have regard to housing supply and availability.  Of course it is the young and poor that suffer and the established wealthy that benefit from the intense competition to rent or buy the housing assets they own...

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