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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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3 hours ago, Will! said:

I doubt many people would have a problem with 100,000 rocket scientists and brain surgeons (for example) from outside the EU compared to tens of thousands of car washers and baristas from inside the EU.

There are far, far better countries than here for such people.

Who wants to come to a place now stamped with xenophobia as its trademark?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48692863

Plus, science works on global cooperation. It's essential.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/08/top-scientists-accuse-boris-johnson-of-behaving-like-a-clown-over-research-funding

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/after-brexit-uk-scientists-face-long-road-mend-ties-europe

Nope. Weapons, money-laundering, asset-stripping and property is all we've got. There are no plans for anything else.

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2 hours ago, mallish said:

There are plenty of UK natives who are unemployed - if they do not want to do those jobs they should lose any benefits.  

 

2 hours ago, mallish said:

Agreed - people seem to have their head in the sand about the enormous effect AI and robotics will have.  Every week jobs are lost to automation.  All of the big companies who announce a restructure are replacing at least some jobs with automation.  It will kill ,low skilled and admin jobs.  

So which is it?

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6 hours ago, rollover said:

Who is going to do all the unskilled low paid jobs?

Jobs like cleaners, catering jobs, building jobs, careers, delivery drivers, cab drivers .... etc.

UK natives doesn't want to do this kind of jobs. The problem is low salary and high accommodation costs.

This people are mostly renting, BJ will decimate BTL landlords.

 

You force them to do it by withdrawing benefits if they refuse. Work or starve. After that, the unemployed can be shipped to where the jobs are and accommodated in dormitories.

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48 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

A country that can't manage its ordinary, routine jobs is a country that's not in a viable position anyway. There shouldn't ever be any need for anything other than uncommon specialist jobs to move around, at least on a routine business.

And a country that's already got more people than it ever has but still seems to think it needs more has utterly lost the plot, unless it's a new colony on uninhabited land, which certainly isn't the case.

Immigration allows an economy to expand to its maximum capacity even after the constraint of full employment has been reached.

Sure, the UK has spent forty years living beyond its means. Publicly acknowledging that failure rather than scapegoating migrants for its consequences is what Johnson should be doing.

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5 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Immigration allows an economy to expand to its maximum capacity even after the constraint of full employment has been reached.

For what purpose? That's arguing that we should continually expand the population, which is bonkers.

Quote

Sure, the UK has spent forty years living beyond its means. Publicly acknowledging that failure rather than scapegoating migrants for its consequences is what Johnson should be doing.

"Rather"? This isn't a one or the other thing. Yes, the UK has been living beyond its means for too long, and is suffering from that. It's also suffering from the impact of continually expanding the population, and these days immigration is the primary source for that.

It should also be repeated, not for the first time, that it's a mistake to equate having a problem with immigration with having a problem with migrants.

Edited by Riedquat
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2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

For what purpose? That's arguing that we should continually expand the population, which is bonkers.

"Rather"? This isn't a one or the other thing. Yes, the UK has been living beyond its means for too long, and is suffering from that. It's also suffering from the impact of continually expanding the population, and these days immigration is the primary source for that.

It should also be repeated, not for the first time, that it's a mistake to equate having a problem with immigration with having a problem with migrants.

All economies run in cycles of expansion and contraction. If during the growth phase an economy reaches full capacity then labour can be imported to sustain that expansion. During the subsequent contraction phase those migrant workers will be released to return home.

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9 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

You force them to do it by withdrawing benefits if they refuse. Work or starve. After that, the unemployed can be shipped to where the jobs are and accommodated in dormitories.

 I think that society has  duty to support and look after it's indigenous people who cannot work due to ill physical or mental health.

It does not have any responsibility for migrants who move to a country who are already unable to work due to illness or who are unable to work because they do not have the required job skills or language skills or who can only do low paid jobs that are insufficient to m,eet housing and nutritional needs.  

I think that anyone who can work and is unemployed should be offered jobs that are available, if they refuse to take the job their benefits stop at once.  Society does not have a duty to support people who are lazy and idle.  Let them rot.  

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57 minutes ago, Wayward said:

I can't see that anyone in this thread has linked this to housing???  We are competing and bidding against each other for scare decent housing. Immigration levels should have regard to housing supply and availability.  Of course it is the young and poor that suffer and the established wealthy that benefit from the intense competition to rent or buy the housing assets they own...

is housing scarce? Loads of houses near me...as long as you want to rent them, rather than buy them. No actual scarcity, just many are owned by people who don't use them to live in?

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8 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

All economies run in cycles of expansion and contraction. If during the growth phase an economy reaches full capacity then labour can be imported to sustain that expansion. During the subsequent contraction phase those migrant workers will be released to return home.

But they're not being released and going home. And in any case in a globalised world all economies expand and contract at roughly the same time.

Also, what's the wisdom of trying to further expand? When the economy was too small to reliably provide everyone with the essentials, let alone some luxuries, expansion made sense. And even that required expansion per capita, not net total. Now it's really just because everyone else does so you have to to survive at all - real arms race territory. There are still plenty of people missing out but that's not because the economy isn't large enough to support them well.

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3 minutes ago, MancTom said:

is housing scarce? Loads of houses near me...as long as you want to rent them, rather than buy them. No actual scarcity, just many are owned by people who don't use them to live in?

Which is the other purpose that migrants serve in the UK - as an undemanding supply of debt mules to the rentier economy.

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39 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

You force them to do it by withdrawing benefits if they refuse. Work or starve. After that, the unemployed can be shipped to where the jobs are and accommodated in dormitories.

Sounds a bit like the workhouses. JRM will be cumming in his pants.

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3 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

But they're not being released and going home. And in any case in a globalised world all economies expand and contract at roughly the same time.

Also, what's the wisdom of trying to further expand? When the economy was too small to reliably provide everyone with the essentials, let alone some luxuries, expansion made sense. And even that required expansion per capita, not net total. Now it's really just because everyone else does so you have to to survive at all - real arms race territory. There are still plenty of people missing out but that's not because the economy isn't large enough to support them well.

The UK has ample provision in law to repatriate non-working EU migrants. Successive Tory govts chose not to exercise that authority because of the potential impact it would have on house prices and rents. Non-EU immigration has always been entirely discretionary.

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1 hour ago, Wayward said:

I can't see that anyone in this thread has linked this to housing???  We are competing and bidding against each other for scare decent housing. Immigration levels should have regard to housing supply and availability.  Of course it is the young and poor that suffer and the established wealthy that benefit from the intense competition to rent or buy the housing assets they own...

Funnily enough I just heard Ian Duncan Smith make exactly that point being interviewed on Radio 4.

Talking about housing demand, employers failing to provide training, TARGETING use of automation in 'low skilled' jobs etc. Normally can't stand him,  must have hit his head this morning. 

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7 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The UK has ample provision in law to repatriate non-working EU migrants. Successive Tory govts chose not to exercise that authority because of the potential impact it would have on house prices and rents. Non-EU immigration has always been entirely discretionary.

Even if they did would that stop the upward pressure? Anyway that's going towards one for the Brexit thread, but it's why I've consistently said that the EU is only one component in this problem.

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From the noises coming out of Priti Patel it seems that these changes would naturally or logically run alongside forcing benefits dependent people into low paid work. Only question is will the landlords still maintain their 20 odd billion a year bung? 

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10 minutes ago, smash said:

From the noises coming out of Priti Patel it seems that these changes would naturally or logically run alongside forcing benefits dependent people into low paid work. Only question is will the landlords still maintain their 20 odd billion a year bung? 

What does that even mean? Most people on benefits do work already - the benefit is to top up the too low salary from e.g. Tesco.

Are you sure there are actually enough people fully on benefits capable of working to replace all the immigrants being sent home?

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1 minute ago, MancTom said:

What does that even mean? Most people on benefits do work already - the benefit is to top up the too low salary from e.g. Tesco.

Are you sure there are actually enough people fully on benefits capable of working to replace all the immigrants being sent home?

Yes, exactly, the wages don't match up with living costs.

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4 hours ago, slawek said:

This is a good news for Rejoin. This will definitely have an negative impact on the UK economy. Some businesses will go down and less people means a smaller economy.  Skilled people will avoid the UK since its reputation as an open and progressive country has been severely damaged by Brexit.  

How so?  negative, as in lower (more realistic) profits for those businesses currently exploiting unskilled low wages/illegal employment and poor working conditions?  tough shit.

 

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14 minutes ago, MancTom said:

What does that even mean? Most people on benefits do work already - the benefit is to top up the too low salary from e.g. Tesco.

Are you sure there are actually enough people fully on benefits capable of working to replace all the immigrants being sent home?

We have a timebomb of young adults in further education (much higher numbers than in previous years/decades), there aren't currently nearly enough jobs or future positions to accommodate those leaving education and joining the world of employment in the next few years. I believe the shortfall  is estimated at about 10:1 ! 

Of course the plethora of low wage jobs propped up by tax credits needs to be somewhat replaced with good high skilled career jobs that are doing something meaningful /profitable.

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