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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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42 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

My Uncle was a good man but a taker no doubt ? as my wise hard working old man said a great guy to take to a party but not take home !

Hi nothing personal meant :-) .  2 good friends are current and ex musicians.  My Dad was a semi-pro guitarist.

Just trying to make a general point that the effect on vast majority of the workforce gets little coverage, whereas the impact on specialists and the wealthy and powerful are being explored ad nauseum.

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4 minutes ago, hotblack42 said:

Hi nothing personal meant :-) .  2 good friends are current and ex musicians.  My Dad was a semi-pro guitarist.

Just trying to make a general point that the effect on vast majority of the workforce gets little coverage, whereas the impact on specialists and the wealthy and powerful are being explored ad nauseum.

Quite.....some are more important than others, when we are all actually the same.;)

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15 minutes ago, hotblack42 said:

Hi nothing personal meant :-) .  2 good friends are current and ex musicians.  My Dad was a semi-pro guitarist.

Just trying to make a general point that the effect on vast majority of the workforce gets little coverage, whereas the impact on specialists and the wealthy and powerful are being explored ad nauseum.

I was agreeing with you ? he was a muso and they have their ways ! Lets say I was always buying him a drink....

Totally re the focus on people who will be unaffected rather than people who will 

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2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Far-right attack in Germany last night. It is the nature of civil wars that they escalate out of nowhere. For the people of England in the 17th century right up until the battle of Naseby it was inconceviable that Crown and Parliament would actually kill each other.

But do we still have roundheads and cavaliers?  I think we still have puritans for starters.

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34 minutes ago, hotblack42 said:

Hi nothing personal meant :-) .  2 good friends are current and ex musicians.  My Dad was a semi-pro guitarist.

Just trying to make a general point that the effect on vast majority of the workforce gets little coverage, whereas the impact on specialists and the wealthy and powerful are being explored ad nauseum.

I was thinking the same about Hebden Bridge and its flooding problems.

The terraced houses in HB would've been populated by working class Yorkshire, hardly educated and not articulate.  Only two or three decades ago it was a poor place.

The houses would've had stone flag floors and little in the way of soft furnishings.  In other words floods did not get moaned about, and certainly not by the right people.  But now we have all these well-connected types living in the terraced houses, and we never hear the last of it.

 

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12 minutes ago, kzb said:

I was thinking the same about Hebden Bridge and its flooding problems.

The terraced houses in HB would've been populated by working class Yorkshire, hardly educated and not articulate.  Only two or three decades ago it was a poor place.

The houses would've had stone flag floors and little in the way of soft furnishings.  In other words floods did not get moaned about, and certainly not by the right people.  But now we have all these well-connected types living in the terraced houses, and we never hear the last of it.

 

Well done resisting the temptation to mention dykes in the context of flooding and HB

Edited by debtlessmanc
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3 hours ago, slawek said:

 

I'm 40, my vote has resulted in the occurrence of a change of law which is the very topic of this thread. No more joy over the suffering of the poorest working Natives for you, no wonder you're so bitter. Along with losing your ability to exploit cheap EU labour for your own personal profits, you MCC and JonBollocks2.

Fantastic *winesmiley*

Edited by maffo in oxford
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2 minutes ago, maffo in oxford said:

I'm 40, my vote has resulted in the occurrence of a change of law which is the very topic of this thread. No more joy over the suffering of the poorest working Natives for you, no wonder you're so bitter. Along with losing your ability to exploit cheap EU labour for your own personal profits, you MCCC and JonBollocks2.

Fantastic *winesmiley*

I have no idea what you are talking about.

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8 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Is it worse than how Indians, Australians and New Zealanders are treated today?  Many of whom are descended from people who fought for the UK in WWI and WWII.

Well when we joined the Common market in 1973 we decided to put our neighbours before our family. And eventually we found out we didn’t speak the same language as the latter.

That break ended free movement across the Commonwealth. Essentially we ended the right to move to mostly English speaking nations with which we had a common bond and history from the Caribbean to Canada to Malaysia to New Zealand for the right to move to Slovakia and Bulgaria! 

Hence despite nearly 50 years in the EU there are about the same number of UK citizens living in Australia as in the entire EU (excluding Ireland where we keep the CTA) with which we have had freedom of movement for 50 years. 98% of Brits have never taken advantage of freedom of movement to live and work as they have little interest in it beyond a two week summer holiday in Spain or Greece which we can do easily with 130+ non EU nations too who offer visa free tourism for UK nationals!

And where do most Brits say they would love to emigrate to - Commonwealth nations - not Slovakia or Latvia!

Bit of a mistake we made back then wasn’t it - selling out our old friends who stood with us when we were at our lowest ebb!

Edited by MARTINX9
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18 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

Well when we joined the Common market in 1973 we decided to put our neighbours before our family. And eventually we found out we didn’t speak the same language as the latter.

That break ended free movement across the Commonwealth. Essentially we ended the right to move to mostly English speaking nations with which we had a common bond and history from the Caribbean to Canada to Malaysia to New Zealand for the right to move to Slovakia and Bulgaria! 

Hence despite nearly 50 years in the EU there are about the same number of UK citizens living in Australia as in the entire EU (excluding Ireland where we keep the CTA) with which we have had freedom of movement for 50 years. 98% of Brits have never taken advantage of freedom of movement to live and work as they have little interest in it beyond a two week summer holiday in Spain or Greece which we can do easily with 130+ non EU nations too who offer visa free tourism for UK nationals!

And where do most Brits say they would love to emigrate to - Commonwealth nations - not Slovakia or Latvia!

Bit of a mistake we made back then wasn’t it - selling out our old friends who stood with us when we were at our lowest ebb!

Indeed - the other influence was the cold war. The us wanted the uk inside europe to spy on the others and make sure they stayed on the right side. We should have stayed with the old empire with freedom of movement- even with eg jamaica after all it has pretty much ended up this  way anyway.

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8 hours ago, scottbeard said:

For some people, perhaps.  I don't support FOM and I think the points-based proposal is better.  But I voted Remain because there are more important matters than immigration.

I support FOM. We have freedom of movement within the four nations of the UK, we have it with Ireland and for a long time people in the UK mostly thought freedom of movement with Europe was good, if they thought about it at all.

Freedom of movement treats all people within the union equally. You don't have to be privileged, rich, have a high education to move around. Everyone, Welsh, Scottish, English, Northern Irish, Irish has equal opportunity to seek a better life by relocating.

It is quite a recent thing that freedom of movement with the rest of the EU became unpopular in the UK. It coincided with both the integration of the EE states and the austerity and fallout after the 2008 crisis. If you look back through history, there is almost always an anti-immigrant backlash after any time like that. 

You could see it on this very forum and in fact on others. This place in the earlier 2000s would spend a lot of time arguing nuances of financial policy and so on. Immigration was a low topic issue. Now, immigration is the dominant sentiment on here.

Brexit was motivated primarily by an anti-immigration sentiment which is why it is no coincidence that probably 99% (my guess) of brexiters want to end freedom of movement. 

Edited by dugsbody
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10 hours ago, hotblack42 said:

And another thing.  So much noise in the media and on forums about the impact of Brexit and immigration controls on Musicians.  What are they, 0.1% of the workforce? Less?

Maybe people who call themselves musicians and are aspirational, a bit like students, and with similar views about the EU.

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9 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I support FOM. We have freedom of movement within the four nations of the UK, we have it with Ireland and for a long time people in the UK mostly thought freedom of movement with Europe was good, if they thought about it at all.

Freedom of movement treats all people within the union equally. You don't have to be privileged, rich, have a high education to move around. Everyone, Welsh, Scottish, English, Northern Irish, Irish has equal opportunity to seek a better life by relocating.

It is quite a recent thing that freedom of movement with the rest of the EU became unpopular. It coincided with both the integration of the EE states and the austerity and fallout after the 2008 crisis. If you look back through history, there is almost always an anti-immigrant backlash after any time like that. 

You could see it on the very forum and in fact on others. This place in the earlier 2000s would spend a lot of time arguing nuances of financial policy and so on. Immigration was a low topic issue. Now, immigration is the dominant sentiment on here.

Brexit was motivated primarily by an anti-immigration sentiment which is why it is no coincidence that probably 99% (my guess) of brexiters want to end freedom of movement. 

The difference between our brothers and sisters in our 200 year old union is negligible in terms of history, fighting together and blood 

The difference between peoples across the EU is of a different magnitude - You are probably right it is a recent thing - joining the dots for you - the continued admission of poor, completely different cultured countries was bound to create strains

I am a remainer and I strongly support the points based system as do my Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, Eastern European friends et al - they don't share your rose tinted view of mass immigration

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1 minute ago, GregBowman said:

The difference between our brothers and sisters in our 200 year old union is negligible in terms of history, fighting together and blood 

The difference between peoples across the EU is of a different magnitude - You are probably right it is a recent thing - joining the dots for you - the continued admission of poor, completely different cultured countries was bound to create strains

I am a remainer and I strongly support the points based system as do my Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, Eastern European friends et al - they don't share your rose tinted view of mass immigration

I don't have rose tinted views of "mass immigration". That word is used because it is convenient for brexiter to arbitrarily decide we have had "mass immigration". In the next breath they advocate an Australian style system, which has higher immigration, "MASS immigration".

Where you see differences, I see opportunities. I see amazing experiences, friends, families made. I made use of EU freedom of movement and went and lived on the continent for some time immediately after uni. It is an amazing privilege to have the opportunity to do that. But all brexiters can see is foreigners coming to live near them.

When I read your words above the thing that jumps out at me is "our brothers and sisters". It's cringeworthy. You have made a conscious decision who your "brothers and sisters" are. Broaden your mind.

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1 hour ago, MARTINX9 said:

That break ended free movement across the Commonwealth. Essentially we ended the right to move to mostly English speaking nations with which we had a common bond and history from the Caribbean to Canada to Malaysia to New Zealand for the right to move to Slovakia and Bulgaria! 

Who do you think you're fooling? You think the people who voted for brexit would have been ok with continued freedom of movement with the countries of the Commonwealth?

 

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7 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I don't have rose tinted views of "mass immigration". That word is used because it is convenient for brexiter to arbitrarily decide we have had "mass immigration". In the next breath they advocate an Australian style system, which has higher immigration, "MASS immigration".

Where you see differences, I see opportunities. I see amazing experiences, friends, families made. I made use of EU freedom of movement and went and lived on the continent for some time immediately after uni. It is an amazing privilege to have the opportunity to do that. But all brexiters can see is foreigners coming to live near them.

When I read your words above the thing that jumps out at me is "our brothers and sisters". It's cringeworthy. You have made a conscious decision who your "brothers and sisters" are. Broaden your mind.

Take the those little star spangled EU glasses off - having a Lithuanian Dad and hence European blood perhaps just perhaps I see it differently like all my 1st generation and 2nd generation mixed blood friends and family - Weird our fathers and mothers saw the greatest opportunity here not back home - funny that don't you think ?

Lets get to the facts:

2. According to the United Nations Population Division, the number of British people living in the EU is 1.2 million[1]. (The largest communities are in Spain – 309,000, Ireland – 255,000, France – 185,000 and Germany – 103,000. See Annex A.)

3. Many of the British emigrants to Europe, especially Ireland, Italy, Germany, Cyprus, France and Spain, are self-sufficient retirees so the numbers in employment are fewer than the total number of residents. The data on the total number of British workers in EU countries is however unavailable since many countries do not collect this. We do know that there are around 400,000 pensioners in receipt of a DWP pension living in Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Cyprus, the Netherlands and Germany and we can therefore assume that these people are not working[2]. From this we can estimate that of the 1.2 million British people living in in another EU country, around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants.

Item 2 would say the vast majority live in just 4 countries and Ireland being one of them which would of happened anyway

Sort of backing up why our parents came here - they could of gone anywhere ?

You lived in the EU for sometime ahh how nice - how come you came back ? opportunity perhaps 

If the EU is such a land of opportunity why are there only max 348,000 Brit nationals outside those countries and thats before adjusting for pensioners -There are 100,000 Lithuanians in the UK and over 800,000 Poles sort of a one way street don't you think ?

We think the UK is a great country - sad you seem to hate half your fellow country men, but then your neither fish nor fowl are you ? British 100% blood I guess but loving a faceless bureaucracy you think is Europe - its not its an admin system for our homelands

As the Lithuanians say because your born in a sewer doesn't make you a rat - your love of all things EU doesn't make you European and gives you even less understanding of the tribal way we think hence my term brothers and sisters.  

 

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9 hours ago, hotblack42 said:

Hi nothing personal meant :-) .  2 good friends are current and ex musicians.  My Dad was a semi-pro guitarist.

Just trying to make a general point that the effect on vast majority of the workforce gets little coverage, whereas the impact on specialists and the wealthy and powerful are being explored ad nauseum.

Exactly - you do wonder how any musicians (well ones with talent!) ever manage to play any gigs outside Europe.

As is evidenced by the numbers 98 per cent of Brits haven’t taken advantage of  freedom of movement to move and work and settle abroad in the EU - they can go on holiday for up to six months in some cases to 130 non EU nations which is all they want (a two week Break once a year). They don’t see freedom of movement as a loss as they have no interest in moving to another EU member state - in their eyes it’s all one way and in their direction placing pressure on housing schools and services.

As for those bemoaning it’s end - you still have FOM for 10 months so what are you still doing here then!

 

 

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How to make something bad enough worse.

 

Quote

 

Social care is crumbling, and Johnson’s immigration plans will only make it worse

Another one bites the dust. The fourth biggest provider of home care for the frail, the Mears Group, with 30 branches in the UK, is abandoning its domiciliary care services. Social care is collapsing because too few people are willing to work gruelling hours in disgraceful conditions for pitiful pay. Median average pay as of last March is a meagre £8.10 an hour, with parts of their hours unpaid: a quarter of staff are on zero-hours contracts. Similar work in the NHS pays more, working in supermarkets pays more, without the emotional stress.

The new points-based immigration system announced by the home secretary, Priti Patel, on Wednesday will see many more companies fleeing the sector for lack of staff. With 122,000 vacancies, this decade’s 25% increase in people over 65 means another 580,000 staff will be needed to care for them over the next 15 years.

Here’s the shocking circularity in the government’s position: caring will not qualify as sufficiently skilled to earn a visa, but all that brands this delicate work as “unskilled” is the appalling low pay. Rates for the job are only so low because the government, through local authorities, refuses to pay a fair or even a market rate for the job. The result is market failure, as the care sector collapses. In truth, however, it isn’t a market at all. Care services were outsourced by Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s to cut costs by allowing private companies to pay below public sector rates. But in the end, it was still the state paying for most of it: underpay, and people refuse to take the jobs.

Guardian

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, rollover said:

How to make something bad enough worse.

 

 

 

Most ethnic minorities in this country would view the care of their elderly family members as their responsibility anyway. What is it about the young white British folk that thinks it is okay to stick them in homes anyway? 

My brothers and myself cared for my father even when it got really tough towards the end.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

Freedom of movement treats all people within the union equally.

You're correct. So too, generally, does war on the front line and cancer.

What is anyone's "right" not to get trampled and killed by horse? What is anyone's right to win the lottery? Someone from a poorer country should be allowed to come to yours and undercut you, then send the money they earn back to their home to where their currency is much weaker, while their own government can take a back seat, do F all and not bother fixing their own economy. What is a Gazelles right not to get eaten by a Lion? What is a persons right to not suffer passive smoking?

"Rights" on their own are simply an abstract thing, void of any human or moral characteristic. That is until they are a construct of the kind of society we want to live in, where we form rules in order to try and make those preferred "rights" achievable, lest we happen to be struck by an extinction size meteor, thus proving the original point that rights are abstract.

Forcing anything onto a society that doesn't want it is to reverse these rights into a lesser existence, resulting in fewer people on any side of the argument feeling obliged to maintain them. On the sharp end of that is conflict.

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1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

There are 100,000 Lithuanians in the UK and over 800,000 Poles sort of a one way street don't you think ?

It's not a one-way street, it's a two way street on which the traffic is mostly in one direction for the time being. Should circumstances change it can flow in the other direction. The F in FOM stands for freedom. Some of us like and believe in freedom. Personally I think a lot of people have started taking it for granted.

Edited by Dorkins
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14 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

It's not a one-way street, it's a two way street on which the traffic is mostly in one direction for the time being. Should circumstances change it can flow in the other direction. The F in FOM stands for freedom. Some of us like and believe in freedom. Personally I think a lot of people have started taking it for granted.

For the time being who are you seriously kidding apart from yourself ? Going to be a barista in Madrid ? but since I come from a family where many members have lived under communist rule and in my dads case fascist rule as well - lets say we know all about 'circumstances' and to say that anything that has happened recently is or will be anything more than an inconvenience when it comes to freedom is just plain hysterical 

Some of us like and believe in freedom - bless you -  believe it or not so do the people who exercised it by voting leave 

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