Coronavirus - potential Black Swan?

[Confusion of VIs]

57 minutes ago, anonguest said:

Yes, I know microwaves don't heat in the conventional sense (they cause excitation of water molecules? and since most food is high percentage of water....)

It was this molecular level action I was wondering about - and if it might also impart sufficient excitation to damage/destroy viruses relatively quickly?

I also specifically gave an example where metal objects might not be present.

Very simply, even if formal testing/experimentation has mber been done (why not?!) is there are expectation, based on the underlying likely physics at work, that domestic microwaves could do the job?

I don't know but would guess not.

If microwaves carried enough energy to directly destroy DNA, cell membranes etc. low levels would be far more dangerous than they are and not something you would use for data transmission.     

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, Dorkins said:

ok boomer

Out by a decade or two there. Anyway that "OK boomer" thing is about as pathetic as saying they're all responsible for tramping the younger generations. Most people are pathetic prats in their own different ways.

[Confusion of VIs]

52 minutes ago, anonguest said:

Yep. My physics knowledge sort of knew all that already. 

And, in reference to the other reply above to my question, yes i realise that dry fabrics wont(?) get heated much to do any harm.

The question was wether the molecular make up of a virus could be sufficiently excited directly to start to damage/deactivate them.  After all we have all likely read that temperatures above 30-ish degress will relatively quickly start to do the job?  Also, are there other molecules (found in viruses) that can be similarly (or better?) excited by the microwaves from a domestic MW oven?

Could just put them in a conventional oven set at 60C that would inactivate the virus in pretty short order.

At my wife's hospital people are reusing masks that have just been left hanging up for 2 days, apparently that's better than trying to clean or disinfect them.  

[longgone]

steaming an object would be the better way to sterilising

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, ticket2ride said:

Why is Germany not top of the leader board?

Indeed, good question.

[kzb]

20 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Soap, laundry detergent, washing up liquid, it's all able to dissolve lipids so it's all good.

The efficacy of benzalkonium chloride disinfectant has been brought into doubt.  That is basically a detergent which disrupts the lipid membrane, and is active against flu viruses, which are enveloped viruses just like our new friend.  But then they are saying the alcohol-free hand sanitizers containing benzalkonium chloride are not very effective?  Can you shed light on this?

[anonguest]

17 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I don't know but would guess not.

If microwaves carried enough energy to directly destroy DNA, cell membranes etc. low levels would be far more dangerous than they are and not something you would use for data transmission.     

It's not the power so much as the wavelength of the MW radiation used? My understanding is that domestic MW ovens work by very specifically exciting water molecules? (what about other molecules? lipids?) 

The wavelengths used for indoor wifi routers, cell phone towers, etc is completely different - and doesn't have that molecular excitation effect.

Edited April 12, 2020 by anonguest

[Riedquat]

26 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Soap, laundry detergent, washing up liquid, it's all able to dissolve lipids so it's all good.

And indeed that's all behind the "wash your hands for 20 seconds" stuff - it's to destroy the virus, not just to send it down the plughole.

[Riedquat]

23 minutes ago, stop_the_craziness said:

Today's announcement of the app had all the classic "run it up the flagpole" elements that we've seen before with things the Tories aren't sure the public are going to get on board with.  Serious water testing of how far the newly neutered public opinion can be pushed.

I suppose it's not too terrible if it's entirely voluntary and doesn't go any further (no "can't have this if you don't have the app"), but I'm glad I don't have a mobile phone.

[Confusion of VIs]

Just now, longgone said:

steaming an object would be the better way to sterilising

The non woven material cores lose their filtering efficiency very easily. Most attempts to clean them reduces their effectiveness, although I have not seen streaming mentioned.  If you just leave them for a couple of days you can be confident both that any virus is inactivated and that the mask is still effective. 

[DarkHorseWaits-NoMore]

5 minutes ago, longgone said:

steaming an object would be the better way to sterilising

Yes, I thought this was the standard method for Health Care, also for industrial Food & Beverage. When used at pressure, steam can reach very high temperatures.

[kzb]

17 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I don't know but would guess not.

If microwaves carried enough energy to directly destroy DNA, cell membranes etc. low levels would be far more dangerous than they are and not something you would use for data transmission.     

Good point.  Microwave photons do not in general destroy the molecules which absorb them.  They make them spin.

No chemical bonds are broken, the photon is too low in energy to do that.

 

[longgone]

2 minutes ago, DarkHorseWaits-NoMore said:

Yes, I thought this was the standard method for Health Care, also for industrial Food & Beverage. When used at pressure, steam can reach very high temperatures.

yes you are momentarily heating the surface, good enough for babies bottles and jam jars.

handheld streamers heat very quickly and are cheap.

[longgone]

6 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The non woven material cores lose their filtering efficiency very easily. Most attempts to clean them reduces their effectiveness, although I have not seen streaming mentioned.  If you just leave them for a couple of days you can be confident both that any virus is inactivated and that the mask is still effective. 

best to leave it a while but steaming would be the most effective.

[Dorkins]

14 minutes ago, kzb said:

The efficacy of benzalkonium chloride disinfectant has been brought into doubt.  That is basically a detergent which disrupts the lipid membrane, and is active against flu viruses, which are enveloped viruses just like our new friend.  But then they are saying the alcohol-free hand sanitizers containing benzalkonium chloride are not very effective?  Can you shed light on this?

The statement about benzalkonium chloride seems to be in this CDC advice:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/hand-hygiene-faq.html

Which references this coronavirus paper:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195670120300463

Which says this in the abstract: "Other biocidal agents such as 0.05–0.2% benzalkonium chloride or 0.02% chlorhexidine digluconate are less effective."

I would guess it's just a concentration thing, 0.05-0.2% benzalkonium chloride may not be enough to dissolve all the lipids in a real life situation of a sweaty, greasy person taking an uncontrolled dollop/squirt of hand sanitiser and rubbing it about on their hands whereas 70% ethanol rubbed everywhere is enough.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Dorkins

[Riedquat]

3 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

I would guess it's just a concentration thing, 0.05-0.2% benzalkonium chloride may not be enough detergent to dissolve all the lipids in a real life situation of a sweaty, greasy person taking an uncontrolled dollop/squirt of hand sanitiser and rubbing it about on their hands whereas 70% ethanol rubbed everywhere is enough.

On the subject of that I spoke to someone the other day who works for a company making it (and who had recently recovered from covid-19 - was looking a bit washed out but not too bad), and he said they're still having problems getting hold of the alcohol to make in to the gel.

[Confusion of VIs]

6 minutes ago, anonguest said:

It's not the power so much as the wavelength of the MW radiation used.  My understanding is that domestic MW ovens work by very specifically exciting water molecules? (what about other molecules? lipids?) 

The wavelengths used for indoor wifi routers, cell phone towers, etc is completely different.

I cannot remember the details, from my Physics days 30yrs ago, but the common explanation of it vibrating water molecules is simplified to the point of being wrong, microwaves can heat anything with a dipole inc. fats and sugars. However the energy imparted isn't enough to directly break up molecules. 

[Riedquat]

1 minute ago, The Spaniard said:

Perhaps we should be well advised to be cautious about accepting any coronavirus vaccine that is proposed, especially if we are coerced into taking it. This podcast casts serious doubt upon Bill Gates, especially if the testimoney of Robert F Kenndey  Jr. is credible.

Don't know about the video (random YouTube videos 9 times out of 10 just raise the blood pressure, so I've not seen it), but caution is why the times quoted for it are all in the year - eighteen month mark, because that'll include a large chunk of time necessary to make sure it both works and isn't worse than getting the disease, even for something invented tomorrow.

[kzb]

6 minutes ago, longgone said:

best to leave it a while but steaming would be the most effective.

Steaming would certainly kill CV19 but we don't know how it affects the filtering efficiency of the mask material.  Even washing it in detergent reduces it significantly.

[longgone]

2 minutes ago, kzb said:

Steaming would certainly kill CV19 but we don't know how it affects the filtering efficiency of the mask material.  Even washing it in detergent reduces it significantly.

a vacuum type test to measure air throughput from new and multiple steam  cleans.

[Jason]

2 hours ago, Dorkins said:

Why not just wash them with soap in the washing machine? Enveloped viruses like flu and coronavirus are very susceptible to detergents, could just do a quick low temperature wash.

 

1 hour ago, longgone said:

yes you are momentarily heating the surface, good enough for babies bottles and jam jars.

handheld streamers heat very quickly and are cheap.

 

I was just going to suggest a baby bottle steriliser that you use in the microwave - only a couple of quid. You just add water, and the steam kills everything. 

[solentmuppet]

Ok, for steam, autoclaves exert a vacuum followed by steam at 2 atmospheres pressure at 134°c for 3 minutes, this kills vegetative organisms and spores ie bacteria but has similar effects on most virus'. You can avhieve the same effect in a dry domestic oven, in which case the requirements are 160°c for one hour......but put them in a sturdy paper bag and squeeze as much air out as possible before sealing. Ps, if using a fan oven increase to 170°c. The dry process should not harm the structure of the filtering element of the mask, can't comment on autoclaving as we never autoclaved those types of masks, only the cloth types. This was back in the 80's if you're wondering. 

[longgone]

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

 

I was just going to suggest a baby bottle steriliser that you use in the microwave - only a couple of quid. You just add water, and the steam kills everything. 

as long as the structure of the mask is not inhibited by the microwave. usually there is metal on the mask too. 

tumble dryer should heat the mask up enough to kill anything as well as a method 

[PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, The Spaniard said:

Perhaps we should be well advised to be cautious about accepting any coronavirus vaccine that is proposed, especially if we are coerced into taking it. This podcast casts serious doubt upon Bill Gates, especially if the testimoney of Robert F Kenndey  Jr. is credible.

 

https://twitter.com/andyparmo/status/1249051711290957824?s=20

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by PeanutButter

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I cannot remember the details, from my Physics days 30yrs ago, but the common explanation of it vibrating water molecules is simplified to the point of being wrong, microwaves can heat anything with a dipole inc. fats and sugars. However the energy imparted isn't enough to directly break up molecules. 

It is because water molecules are polar molecules having a negative pole (Oxygen) and positive (2 hydrogens). The poles oscillate/rotate in the magnetic field of the microwaves. 

Obviously foods with a high water content will cook this way as the molecules will be excited throughout  the food. But masks that don't naturally heat in microwaves would then rely on the microwaves resonating matter in virus particles - which is less likely.