Coronavirus - potential Black Swan?

[Bruce Banner]

1 minute ago, Megadebt said:

 Without an advanced directive in place specifically covering this, as well as the more usual DNR clauses, I'm not sure what the legality is currently of refusial/denial of medical help. 

 The other issue if you were unconcious and unable to consent a decision might be made for you, or even a change of mind when barely able to breath let alone speak.    Mental capacity to make decision can also be a grey area with advancing age.

 Grim 'what if' realities of refusal presents many new legal and ethical dilemas.  

All done and dusted.

My advance directive covers this issue, DNR, and refusal of life sustaining treatment if I am unconscious and unable to consent. Although not strictly necessary, my advance directive is witnessed by a solicitor who confirmed my capacity to make it.

[nightowl]

1 hour ago, doomed said:

 Are people really stupid enough to not see how ridiculous/dangerous this is? 

Seems so. I wouldn't say stupid but naive though at best not seeing the political culture they desire can backfire or just want to be 'looked after' and protected from the big bad world generally and don't understand other don't live their way.

1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said:

Having refused vaccination, there is no way that I would expect, nor accept, hospital treatment, although I might phone a GP and request a prescription for Dexamethasone, or similar.

But why do this?

Each year some people get a flu jab but most don't. Those who don't won't suffer too much themselves but could pass onto someone who the jab failed and die - sound familiar?

Also those not at risk do die too but never make the 6pm news.

This has been happening for decades (if not longer) and we accept 79k+ deaths a year to flu and don't implement Draconian rules to reduce this to "zero flu".  

Flu arrived I to this country from abroad without border quarantine and we never worried about it.

[sexton]

1 hour ago, doomed said:

I have no issue taking a vaccine, I will not show papers to go about my daily business though. Are people really stupid enough to not see how ridiculous/dangerous this is? 

When I get my vaccination it will be recorded against my person number then if authorized entities want to know if I am vaccinated they will just scan the QR code on my driver's license to access the data base.  What's not to like?

[Bruce Banner]

1 minute ago, nightowl said:

Seems so. I wouldn't say stupid but naive though at best not seeing the political culture they desire can backfire or just want to be 'looked after' and protected from the big bad world generally and don't understand other don't live their way.

But why do this?

Each year some people get a flu jab but most don't. Those who don't won't suffer too much themselves but could pass onto someone who the jab failed and die - sound familiar?

Also those not at risk do die too but never make the 6pm news.

This has been happening for decades (if not longer) and we accept 79k+ deaths a year to flu and don't implement Draconian rules to reduce this to "zero flu".  

Flu arrived I to this country from abroad without border quarantine and we never worried about it.

Because, under the circumstances, I think it's fair.

[nightowl]

1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said:

Because, under the circumstances, I think it's fair.

But you don't need to 'sacrifice' yourself though. As I said about flu....we live with exactly the same dilemma every year and no one ever raises it!

[Riedquat]

11 minutes ago, sexton said:

When I get my vaccination it will be recorded against my person number then if authorized entities want to know if I am vaccinated they will just scan the QR code on my driver's license to access the data base.  What's not to like?

I hope that's sarcasm.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said:

Having refused vaccination, there is no way that I would expect, nor accept, hospital treatment, although I might phone a GP and request a prescription for Dexamethasone, or similar.

You would be entitled to hospital treatment, refusing a vaccination would not be a  justification to refuse it.

[Bruce Banner]

24 minutes ago, nightowl said:

But you don't need to 'sacrifice' yourself though. As I said about flu....we live with exactly the same dilemma every year and no one ever raises it!

Decisions have consequences. One of the common arguments for mandatory vaccination is that it would decrease NHS costs of hospital care. I would be happy to commit to not being eligible for hospital treatment for Covid if I have refused vaccination, thus negating that argument.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Bruce Banner

[markyh]

4 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

Governments should not protect competent adults from their own actions.

So why cant we have legally owned handguns, and other banned firearms back, for sporting use, on a firearms licence?

[Bruce Banner]

1 minute ago, markyh said:

So why cant we have legally owned handguns, and other banned firearms back, for sporting use, on a firearms licence?

Because that is to protect others.

[markyh]

4 hours ago, doomed said:

How on earth have we got to the point that someone can seriously suggest this. Ffs kill me now.

Agree, what should happen is if they get covid, need hospital, and records show they refused vaccination, they should just be put in a quarentined "chancers Ward" , zero treatment, and let God decide if they live or not, as that is what they wanted. 

They could then record a time lapse video of said persons having an agonising death, edit it, speed it up ofer a few mins, and email it to everyone not yet vaccinated, headed, 

"It's your choice to play Russian roulette with Covid"

[Riedquat]

Just now, Bruce Banner said:

Because that is to protect others.

Just about anything can get dressed up as "to protect others." At the end of the day it's down to what level of danger actually bothers you or not (the very concept of "any at all" being depressingly prevalent).

Not that I have all that much of a problem with big restrictions on gun ownership. That may sound contradictory to my usual stance, at which point I'll just point to my other objections to oversimplified pigeonholing (I wouldn't have campaigned for greater restrictions but I do find gun nuts rather disturbing).

[markyh]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Because that is to protect others.

But i see it as forced Covid Vaccine = Forced legal Handgun ban . To stop the unhinged like you, hurting others buy potentially carrying and spreading the virus to others who cant vaccinate for medical reasons.  

[Riedquat]

7 minutes ago, markyh said:

Agree, what should happen is if they get covid, need hospital, and records show they refused vaccination, they should just be put in a quarentined "chancers Ward" , zero treatment, and let God decide if they live or not, as that is what they wanted. 

They could then record a time lapse video of said persons having an agonising death, edit it, speed it up ofer a few mins, and email it to everyone not yet vaccinated, headed, 

"It's your choice to play Russian roulette with Covid"

If you're trying to scare people who aren't actually at all that high a risk that'll blow up in your face due to being disproportionate  - trying to scare people with a low likelihood severe outcome just garners you even more distrust from anyone not already agreeing with your stance, real boy who cried wolf stuff.

If you're trying to guilt trip people with the "protect others" then that'll get rejected by them for being the blatant manipulation attempt that it is. "Protecting others" has become so over-used it almost always comes across at an attempt at shutting down conflicting opinions rather than a legitimate concern - I suppose another case of "boy who cried wolf."

You don't get people on your side by trying to make them look like arseholes, and you can only scare people more who are already a little bit scared (very effective, look how good it's been in making one lot accept just about any restriction you can imagine, and another bunch latch on to whatever the latest batshit conspiracy nonsense is).

Edited March 10, 2021 by Riedquat

[Bruce Banner]

Just now, markyh said:

But i see it as forced Covid Vaccine = Forced legal Handgun ban . To stop the unhinged like you, hurting others buy potentially carrying and spreading the virus to others who cant vaccinate for medical reasons.  

In that case they should ban cars and anything else that could be used as an offensive weapon.

[doomed]

9 minutes ago, markyh said:

Agree, what should happen is if they get covid, need hospital, and records show they refused vaccination, they should just be put in a quarentined "chancers Ward" , zero treatment, and let God decide if they live or not, as that is what they wanted. 

They could then record a time lapse video of said persons having an agonising death, edit it, speed it up ofer a few mins, and email it to everyone not yet vaccinated, headed, 

"It's your choice to play Russian roulette with Covid"

Why so polarised. Do you not see any middle ground or we just have to debate between two extreme outcomes? 

The level of stupidity the West has been shoe horned into is quite amazing to see. Zero thought of nth order consequences or even sensible debate allowed. The media has built this and everyone has lapped it up. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by doomed

[msi]

2 minutes ago, markyh said:

But i see it as forced Covid Vaccine = Forced legal Handgun ban . To stop the unhinged like you, hurting others buy potentially carrying and spreading the virus to others who cant vaccinate for medical reasons.  

What in the bat sh*t loon thinking is this?  You do realise that Vaccine stops you getting ill and dying from COVID

By that logic there are sensible COVID carriers that know how to carry and hand the virus?

By that logic the only way to defeat the virus is to have the virus? - well yes once you're dead you can't be killed off

 

Please stick to your bitc*in boasts

 

[Riedquat]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

In that case they should ban cars and anything else that could be used as an offensive weapon.

Too much money around in people having cars. But they're pretty keen on pushing it to the point where no-one should be trusted with one and they'll all be driven by machines instead - treat us all like irresponsible children because a few are, and a lot more can be scared in to accepting it because something bad might happen.

[msi]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

Too much money around in people having cars. But they're pretty keen on pushing it to the point where no-one should be trusted with one and they'll all be driven by machines instead - treat us all like irresponsible children because a few are, and a lot more can be scared in to accepting it because something bad might happen.

Welcome to the 'war on terror' - every erosion of your liberty based on that premise

[Riedquat]

1 minute ago, msi said:

What in the bat sh*t loon thinking is this?  You do realise that Vaccine stops you getting ill and dying from COVID

For the large majority the risk of dying from Covid is pretty small anyway, so on the personal safety alone side there's not a particularly compelling case for being vaccinated. Whilst I've pointed out my disgust for "protecting others" being all too often used as a way of shutting down any further discussion (seeing how it almost always carries connotations of "I'm right and you're selfish so I don't even have to make a case for my point") it's not 100% black and white so I regard getting vaccinated as being the decent thing to do, because there are still quite a few people around (far more than who'd be at risk from normal day-to-day, year-to-year equivalent risks) who are at a severe risk.

[msi]

6 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

For the large majority the risk of dying from Covid is pretty small anyway, so on the personal safety alone side there's not a particularly compelling case for being vaccinated. Whilst I've pointed out my disgust for "protecting others" being all too often used as a way of shutting down any further discussion (seeing how it almost always carries connotations of "I'm right and you're selfish so I don't even have to make a case for my point") it's not 100% black and white so I regard getting vaccinated as being the decent thing to do, because there are still quite a few people around (far more than who'd be at risk from normal day-to-day, year-to-year equivalent risks) who are at a severe risk.

During the Blitz, for the large majority the risk of dying from being bombed is pretty small anyway, so on the personal safety alone side there's not a particular compelling case for using an air raid shelter.

[Riedquat]

2 minutes ago, msi said:

During the Blitz, for the large majority the risk of dying from being bombed is pretty small anyway, so on the personal safety alone side there's not a particular compelling case for using an air raid shelter.

Which is why the entire country didn't hide in an air raid shelter every time there was an air raid, just the ones who were in the area they thought the raid was headed for. Bombers heading for London didn't result in people in Penzance taking cover.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Riedquat

[Megadebt]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

Which is why the entire country didn't hide in an air raid shelter every time there was an air raid, just the ones who were in the area they thought the raid was headed for.

 All UK cities had German code-names, lines of approach would often turn unpredictably late on the approach to thwart interceptors 'angels' , AA artillery and civil defence. Also average bomb aiming accuraccy in night blackout was 5 miles!

 A common urban myth that the city of coventry was sacrificed to preserve our enigma decrytion abilities.  All we knew was that there was a major raid on it's way, the target revealed itself too late to protect the city.

 Rumour is that Goering ordered Hampton Court palace to be no strict no fly zone, he had reserved it for his future living quarters.

 

Wikipedia- "The devastation was so great that the word "Koventrieren"– to "Coventrate", or to annihilate or reduce to rubble – entered the German and English languages."

 

   

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, nightowl said:

Each year some people get a flu jab but most don't. Those who don't won't suffer too much themselves but could pass onto someone who the jab failed and die - sound familiar?

Also those not at risk do die too but never make the 6pm news.

This has been happening for decades (if not longer) and we accept 79k+ deaths a year to flu and don't implement Draconian rules to reduce this to "zero flu".  

Flu arrived I to this country from abroad without border quarantine and we never worried about it.

Not so. We worry about the flu so much that we vaccinate a third of the population against it every year.

And periodically it does make the 6pm news.

 

[Bruce Banner]

4 minutes ago, Megadebt said:

 All UK cities had German code-names, lines of approach would often turn unpredictably late on the approach to thwart interceptors 'angels' , AA artillery and civil defence. Also average bomb aiming accuraccy in night blackout was 5 miles!

 A common urban myth that the city of coventry was sacrificed to preserve our enigma decrytion abilities.  All we knew was that there was a major raid on it's way, the target revealed itself too late to protect the city.

 Rumour is that Goering ordered Hampton Court palace to be no strict no fly zone, he had reserved it for his future living quarters.

 

Wikipedia- "The devastation was so great that the word "Koventrieren"– to "Coventrate", or to annihilate or reduce to rubble – entered the German and English languages."

 

   

I thought that local sirens were sounded when observers confirmed an imminent air raid, to give people enough time to get to an air raid shelter if they so wished.