Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[simvastatin]

36 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Lovely cross member cooperation.  I did read that wrong the first time, as it stated they were there for the 90 odd UK troops deployed there, but now looking more like proper coordination.

Cheers

Is this Libya 2, bomb the infrastructure arm the rebels, so that western corporate can buy up the country, lot of refugees will go to Europe which will lower the wages to compete with China and keep asset values high

 

[OnionTerror]

15 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Stupid, clearly, as it shows in that twitter timeline.

Now lets look to his education education. Polytechnics back then didn't do degrees, they did HND's and their ilk.  You could attend for two years, then if you passed, go onto a Degree course without honours.  Lots found this as a way into Uni in the 90's, as they'd messed their A levels up.  My wife's course in the 90's was joined by 10 people in the final year this way.  

He might be a xenophobe, you just don't know from this.

I did an HND.  You could go on and do the full 360 if you wanted to.

[kzb]

2 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Labour chaotic on Brexit...just heard Alison McGovern MP say we are the party of remain on Beeb live news interview...

It does seem chaos.  However you have got to wonder about the spin put on by C4 and the BBC.  Watching C4 News last night you would think it was a Brexit/Remain conference not the Labour party conference.

Absolutely no-one has picked on the revocability of A50 and what the so-called Peoples' Vote could vote on.

The term Peoples' Vote, what was it that voted in the 2016 referendum then?  Are they implying they weren't people?

[jonb2]

2 minutes ago, kzb said:

It does seem chaos.  However you have got to wonder about the spin put on by C4 and the BBC.  Watching C4 News last night you would think it was a Brexit/Remain conference not the Labour party conference.

Absolutely no-one has picked on the revocability of A50 and what the so-called Peoples' Vote could vote on.

The term Peoples' Vote, what was it that voted in the 2016 referendum then?  Are they implying they weren't people?

This time it's different. Will won't vote - just the people.

[btl_hater]

14 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The over 65s who voted 3:1 for Brexit don't care about mass unemployment, they just assume the pension money will keep landing in their bank account no matter what. When they act all tough and say 'oh sure there might be some transitional pain but it will be worth it' what they actually mean is 'somebody else will experience that transitional pain so why should I care?'

+1e260

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The over 65s who voted 3:1 for Brexit don't care about mass unemployment, they just assume the pension money will keep landing in their bank account no matter what. When they act all tough and say 'oh sure there might be some transitional pain but it will be worth it' what they actually mean is 'somebody else will experience that transitional pain so why should I care?'

Over 65s are pretty close to the people left alive who voted in the original EU referendum in 1975 - It's striking that the generation who (narrowly) voted to remain then are now so anti EU. I don't think that their experience of living through the 40 or so years of the Steel Community > EU should be so casually discarded. Some cultures respect age & experience, even calling it wisdom on occasion. It's also hard to believe that they don't care about the prospects of their children/grandchildren.

[thehowler]

6 minutes ago, kzb said:

It does seem chaos.  However you have got to wonder about the spin put on by C4 and the BBC.  Watching C4 News last night you would think it was a Brexit/Remain conference not the Labour party conference.

That's fair, but I want to know what will Labour do on Brexit if there's a GE called next week. Any Charlie can say all options are open, that's easy. Both parties inch towards making their choice, but we're not there yet.

8 minutes ago, kzb said:

Absolutely no-one has picked on the revocability of A50 and what the so-called Peoples' Vote could vote on.

Smoke and dust.

[kzb]

14 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The over 65s who voted 3:1 for Brexit don't care about mass unemployment, they just assume the pension money will keep landing in their bank account no matter what.

I don't recall this document getting any airtime on here when it came out.  Please have a read of at least some of it for the counter narrative:

https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/itsquiteoktowalkaway.pdf

"Since 1993, the Single Market has been a club of distinctively high, distinctively severe, long-term unemployment which has normalised previously unthinkable levels of unemployment, especially among 15 to 24-year-olds. The record of the EU’s later entrants is still worse." < >

"Overall, the evidence shows that the disadvantages of non-membership of the EU and Single Market have been vastly exaggerated and that the supposed benefits of membership, whether for exports of goods and services, for productivity, for world-wide trade, or for employment, are largely imaginary. "

 

 

[kzb]

2 minutes ago, thehowler said:

That's fair, but I want to know what will Labour do on Brexit if there's a GE called next week. Any Charlie can say all options are open, that's easy. Both parties inch towards making their choice, but we're not there yet.

Smoke and dust.

That's what is being decided at this conference.  Didn't JC say he would go along with what the majority of members want?  He is being democratic.

We also know it is Labour policy to vote down ANY "deal" simply to force a GE.  Not exactly putting country before party in other words.

[HairyOb1]

Just now, Dave Beans said:

I did an HND.  You could go on and do the full 360 if you wanted to.

It wasn't intended as a slur, not at all, just wanted to put it out there.  You work just as hard on HND's as they're vocational.  Some of the best software engineers I have used come from HND background and then went to final years in Uni.  I wanted to point out that it may look like 2 degrees but was very likely just the one.

No offence intended.  

[zugzwang]

Just now, jonb2 said:

I see no activity by Unite in actively and collectively stopping the rot of wages and decline. You do?

Most union leaders are too busy playing power games in the party to bother too much about the man on the street.

Secondly, I cannot reconcile how Labour thinks Brexit is good for jobs. Another example of feck business - but from the left. Still if it's mass unemployment people want - then so be it.

Were it not for the likes of Unite and Unison there'd be millions more on zero hours, minimum wage contracts. What are these 'power games' you allude to darkly?

Brexit was a moral choice not an economic one. In effect, a referendum on the policy of open door immigration and German sadomentarism. Nothing to do with short-term gains or chimerical 'dividends'. 

[HairyOb1]

Just now, highYield said:

Over 65s are pretty close to the people left alive who voted in the original EU referendum in 1975 - It's striking that the generation who (narrowly) voted to remain then are now so anti EU. I don't think that their experience of living through the 40 or so years of the Steel Community > EU should be so casually discarded. Some cultures respect age & experience, even calling it wisdom on occasion. It's also hard to believe that they don't care about the prospects of their children/grandchildren.

It's hard to believe anything other than this to be frank.  It seems very one eyed.

[thehowler]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

That's what is being decided at this conference.  Didn't JC say he would go along with what the majority of members want?  He is being democratic.

But the wording they have agreed to vote on is ambiguous.

Starmer can get his standing ovation in the conference hall but he'll lose Walsall, as discussed above. And if Labour ignore their old town base they will never get in.

[OnionTerror]

3 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

It wasn't intended as a slur, not at all, just wanted to put it out there.  You work just as hard on HND's as they're vocational.  Some of the best software engineers I have used come from HND background and then went to final years in Uni.  I wanted to point out that it may look like 2 degrees but was very likely just the one.

No offence intended.  

No probs hairy.  I’ve almost finished another degree anyway, separate to my HND.  Not that degrees are necessarily the only way to show some kind of intelligence.

[thehowler]

4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Brexit was a moral choice not an economic one.

Moral values are largely shared and comparable - better an emotional choice, as Mr Farage is now calling it!

[Dorkins]

8 minutes ago, highYield said:

Over 65s are pretty close to the people left alive who voted in the original EU referendum in 1975 - It's striking that the generation who (narrowly) voted to remain then are now so anti EU. I don't think that their experience of living through the 40 or so years of the Steel Community > EU should be so casually discarded. Some cultures respect age & experience, even calling it wisdom on occasion. It's also hard to believe that they don't care about the prospects of their children/grandchildren.

Wisdom grows out of pain. Our current batch of over 65s are the most comfortable generation there has ever been.

[Peter Hun]

43 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Polytechnics back then didn't do degrees

Wrong. I started in 1983 and virtually nobody dId a HND at my Poly. There were many courses from one year to HND to Msc to Degree to PhD.

 

[Riedquat]

8 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Moral values are largely shared and comparable - better an emotional choice, as Mr Farage is now calling it!

Plenty of variations in morals throughout both time and place.

I don't have any issue with making choices based on what you think will give you the most emotional satisfaction; indeed I find making decisions for any other reason rather irrational (which isn't as contradictory as it sounds). You need to think about things rationally to have a good idea just what will give you that emotional satisfaction, or is a means towards it; it may not always be the simple, immediately most appealing choice, but the same's true for everything.

[Steve Smith]

12 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

It wasn't intended as a slur, not at all, just wanted to put it out there.  You work just as hard on HND's as they're vocational.  Some of the best software engineers I have used come from HND background and then went to final years in Uni.  I wanted to point out that it may look like 2 degrees but was very likely just the one.

No offence intended.  

Quite agree, I will preferentially employ someone with a good HNC/D over 2nd class degree any time. Although unfortunately  HNC/Ds in the subjects I'm interested in (Maths/Stats/Physics & Programming) are few and far between. I need people who can do things, not talk about how to do things.

[zugzwang]

Just now, thehowler said:

Moral values are largely shared and comparable - better an emotional choice, as Mr Farage is now calling it!

Are they? The EU is a neoliberal bankers' club that believes in free markets, free movement and globalisation all of which I consider to be immoral (and economically self-defeating).

[kzb]

Plan A+

Have they been reading my posts?

"...the UK should be prepared to take action in the WTO under the GATT and the SPS and TBT Agreements . It is true that such claims can take years to resolve, but the UK should use threats of trade litigation to help support its negotiating objectives, as is normal practice around the world."

"It is not logical to seek to negotiate a future framework for the trade relationship without at least commencing negotiations on what that framework could be,"

https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PLAN-A-FINAL.pdf

 

 

 

[Riedquat]

8 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

Wisdom grows out of pain. Our current batch of over 65s are the most comfortable generation there has ever been.

You can only know what doesn't matter if you lose it if you've lived both with and without.

[HairyOb1]

Just now, Dave Beans said:

No probs hairy.  I’ve almost finished another degree anyway, separate to my HND.  Not that degrees are necessarily the only way to show some kind of intelligence.

I have 3 now, my first (useless in all fairness but I just wanted to get out of home and away), then a second vocational one, and a masters.  I got the last 2 as they were stupidly required for entry to my field, although the masters was paid for as part of a grad scheme.  I have found that there's no substitute for experience, but if there was, vocational qualifications in software engineering would be above a degree, just because they're taught how to do something, not its theory.

Just now, Steve Smith said:

Quite agree, I will preferentially employ someone with a good HNC/D over 2nd class degree any time. Although unfortunately  HNC/Ds in the subjects I'm interested in (Maths/Stats/Physics & Programming) are few and far between. I need people who can do things, not talk about how to do things.

I go for demonstrable experience now.  I'd rather someone could prove the last 5 years with references, than any degrees.  I was discussing this with eldest child at the weekend, that unfortunately in their chosen field, they have to get a degree, which will only be letters once they start their career and nothing more.  I learned more in 6 months of proper work than in the 4 years of my degrees.  First line I was given by my then boss?  Forget everything you've been taught...

[Dorkins]

12 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

You can only know what doesn't matter if you lose it if you've lived both with and without.

Brb, just off to burn down my house to learn a valuable life lesson.

[thehowler]

12 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Are they? The EU is a neoliberal bankers' club that believes in free markets, free movement and globalisation all of which I consider to be immoral (and economically self-defeating).

I agree and I was a reluctant remainer. The abstract won me over. For many it's a question of scale and they highlight what they consider to be the EU/27's merits and better intentions.

When scale, balance and personal effect comes into it, it veers towards the emotional for me. But you may walk a higher, more rational path.