allfiredup Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: We saved? Revisionism, much? Quite offended by this to be honest. Soviet Union lost over 20m people (13% of her people), Poland 325k, Netherlands almost 3% of their population, Lithuania and Latvia 15% all fighting the Nazis and if it wasn't for the states, we'd have lost the war, that much is documented. This notion plucky little UK defended the world from the nazis is just a story perpetuated by people who really know 10% of fkuc all about history. Ah thanks for editing and clarifying. So if i had added the word "helped" to save, you would agree with my post. My apologies. My edit. BIB - it is now clear to me you are positively anti-UK, which explains a lot. Edited October 24, 2017 by allfiredup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, allfiredup said: Ah thanks for editing and clarifying. So if i had added the word "helped" to save, you would agree with my post. My apologies. No worries, accepted. Yes, I would, we did help stop the nazis with help from a lot of europeans on our soil, who came to fight the germans alongside us. So, well, that tends to get forgotten in the revision of history. There used to be Polish Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons, Baltic folk came in their thousands to help, as did the flemish, dutch, wallonians, French, Romanians, Hungarians, Czechs. It's kind of lazy that's all, but yes, you did change it, so thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: No worries, accepted. Yes, I would, we did help stop the nazis with help from a lot of europeans on our soil, who came to fight the germans alongside us. So, well, that tends to get forgotten in the revision of history. There used to be Polish Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons, Baltic folk came in their thousands to help, as did the flemish, dutch, wallonians, French, Romanians, Hungarians, Czechs. It's kind of lazy that's all, but yes, you did change it, so thanks. It certainly wasn't, and never will be forgotten, I just like to keep it brief where possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 18 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said: We saved? Revisionism, much? Quite offended by this to be honest. Soviet Union lost over 20m people (13% of her people), Poland 325k, Netherlands almost 3% of their population, Lithuania and Latvia 15% all fighting the Nazis and if it wasn't for the states, we'd have lost the war, that much is documented. This notion plucky little UK defended the world from the nazis is just a story perpetuated by people who really know 10% of fkuc all about history. Tbf if we had stayed neutral Germany would have taken the Soviets, if we hadn't had the English channel we too would have been occupied. Unfortunately Blitzkrieg fails when you have 22 miles of sea. The battle was in the balance against the Axis, UK's participation was what tipped the balance. US could not have entered the European theatre with a neutral or conquered UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, allfiredup said: It certainly wasn't, and never will be forgotten, I just like to keep it brief where possible. It's good to know, thanks. 1 minute ago, crashmonitor said: Tbf if we had stayed neutral Germany would have taken the Soviets, if we hadn't had the English channel we too would have been occupied. Unfortunately Blitzkrieg fails when you have 22 miles of sea. The battle was in the balance against the Axis, UK's participation was what tipped the balance. US could not have entered the European theatre with a neutral or conquered UK. Undoubtedly, but the facts are, if they (US) had not joined the war, and allies, we'd have lost the war. I don't think that can be argued. Mixing metaphors, we were on the ropes, then tag teamed a very big mate with lots of friends who backed us up. Also the mistakes the Germans made didn't help. However, I think it's undeniable that without the US, we'd have been taken sooner rather than later, possibly as soon as 43. Europeans played a significant part in the BoB as well, as we had, by the end of it, so few pilots left. Interestingly, I came across a technical issue regarding an action from WW2 not long ago. Off topic, but very funny and hard to sort out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Probably more likely stalemate without the US, at least in the short term. AIUI most post-war analysis suggested that German invasion plans of the UK would've failed, even if they could've got the RN out of the way for long enough, but we certainly wouldn't have been able to do anything more than sit on this side of the Channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: The words population will peak at around 10bn, all the factors required to achieve this are already baked in (have a look at the video I posted last week, it explains this in very simple terms). The latest low impact farming methods will hugely increase productivity and could support a population of far more than this, some think maybe 2 or 3 times as many. Based on the current population growth we will soon be releasing agricultural land for other uses. At the same time energy production/transport will become almost pollution free. So in 50 years the planet will be far greener and cleaner than it is today. You need to find something else to worry about, as you are on this maybe us voluntary making ourselves poorer via Brexit How much did you time machine cost ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, allfiredup said: And I can't remember feeling this proud to be British since the last time we saved Europe from German authoritarian domination. It's fascinating how vastly different opinions can be on this subject. Are you suggesting UK is going to save Europe again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, allfiredup said: And I can't remember feeling this proud to be British since the last time we saved Europe from German authoritarian domination. It's fascinating how vastly different opinions can be on this subject. It's always a good idea to bear in mind how others see us now: http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2115358/has-britain-become-completely-useless-country-these-days Brexit is fueled by an illusion of what we were 100 years ago. The world has moved on and it is relishing seeing the freak show of hard Brexiteers wave their flags feebly against the waves of change. Before anybody accuses me of not loving this country - it is precisely the opposite. It's just I don't believe TPTB have one atom of integrity, truth or competence. They will lie and lie and lie until there is nobody left to blame - but the landscape will be barren by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 26 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Probably more likely stalemate without the US, at least in the short term. AIUI most post-war analysis suggested that German invasion plans of the UK would've failed, even if they could've got the RN out of the way for long enough, but we certainly wouldn't have been able to do anything more than sit on this side of the Channel. No chance, we had no money, no planes and were fairly broken. 2, 3 years max without the States. Germany were just ramping up in 41... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Quote Chris Patten, the Oxford University chancellor and former Conservative party chairman, has accused the Tory whip trying to monitor what universities teach students about Brexit of “idiotic Leninism” Guardian 2.21pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: Always going to be thus. Growth looks good compared to G20. Brexit must be a good thing to come... Actually many do not agree that continuous high growth is a good thing.....why would it be good, when very many can't keep up with it ongoing......continuous high growth is only good for those that benefit, not everyone can.......very many more places globally have got that capacity to catch up, simply because they have been stunted and contained in the past, now their economy is opening up to the global world, they at the moment are benefiting......one day the world might be more balanced, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 33 minutes ago, rollover said: Are you suggesting UK is going to save Europe again? I'm suggesting the UK has (helped to) save Europe again. 19 minutes ago, jonb2 said: It's always a good idea to bear in mind how others see us now: http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2115358/has-britain-become-completely-useless-country-these-days Brexit is fueled by an illusion of what we were 100 years ago. The world has moved on and it is relishing seeing the freak show of hard Brexiteers wave their flags feebly against the waves of change. Before anybody accuses me of not loving this country - it is precisely the opposite. It's just I don't believe TPTB have one atom of integrity, truth or competence. They will lie and lie and lie until there is nobody left to blame - but the landscape will be barren by then. One irrelevant Chinese article doesn't mean anything to me. Brexit has nothing to do with an 'illusion' of what we were 100 years ago. It is a very modern fight, fortunately, this time, with the use of politics instead of guns. And TPTB = EU, so i don't really understand your position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, rollover said: Are you suggesting UK is going to save Europe again? Which is ironic because at this point it’s probably only Germany that’s able to prevent a RW basket case from driving over the cliff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: Always going to be thus. Growth looks good compared to G20. Brexit must be a good thing to come... Top 7 growth countries aren't in the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, ccc said: How much did you time machine cost ? No time machine required, the number of people being born has already peaked. Just watch the video, I posted it for you. You don't even have to be able to count to follow the logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 50 minutes ago, jonb2 said: It's just I don't believe TPTB have one atom of integrity, truth or competence. They will lie and lie and lie until there is nobody left to blame - but the landscape will be barren by then. Yet Confusion of V.I.s is relying on TPTB to do everything right so that we can live in a future utopia where there is no pollution and everyone is well fed. I agree with you though and have no trust in TPTB whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 18 minutes ago, adarmo said: Top 7 growth countries aren't in the EU? Catch up time......but doesn't mean just because for now the prices may be less or can get more for your money, doesn't mean the quality of goods or the safety of goods or services will be better or anybody outside has the power to change it....just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: No time machine required, the number of people being born has already peaked. Just watch the video, I posted it for you. You don't even have to be able to count to follow the logic. I read your post from a few days ago and will go back to make sure I see the video. I think you're relying on people and more importantly, those in charge to act in a certain way to achieve this future vision of the world with 20 billion humans. I have no doubt that its possible if the right people were always in charge but its never the right people or the right system. Forecasting seems to have a habit of going completely wrong, for example when the government forecast that only 250,000 East Europeans would come to the UK (a figure they pulled out of their 4rse) and Ten times that number came. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, Unexpected said: Yet Confusion of V.I.s is relying on TPTB to do everything right so that we can live in a future utopia where there is no pollution and everyone is well fed. I agree with you though and have no trust in TPTB whatsoever. You can trust politicians as far as the electorates intelligence will throw them. If the electorate keeps stuffing its head with Murdoch the Mail et al then what do you expect? TPTB: the towering dark shadow cast by the electorates own choices and beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, allfiredup said: My edit. BIB - it is now clear to me you are positively anti-UK, which explains a lot. ...and you'd be wrong. I am massively pro European and EU, but I am also British, as is my wife and 3 lovely kids. I just happen to think people's narratives when discussing WW2 are comically out of date, always portraying us as fighters, tough plucky people where the reality is we would have had our asses handed to us, were it not for the USA. But you keep up with that ad hominem and see how far that goes. 22 minutes ago, adarmo said: Top 7 growth countries aren't in the EU? No, that's why I stated 'G20'. But, as a matter of interest, where is the EU on that list? How's growth looking here, and in the EU? How is even Italy ahead of us? They weren't just before June 2016, and where were we then as to growth. What's happened in the interim, per chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, Unexpected said: Yet Confusion of V.I.s is relying on TPTB to do everything right so that we can live in a future utopia where there is no pollution and everyone is well fed. I agree with you though and have no trust in TPTB whatsoever. I am not relying on them to do anything, that just the way things are playing out. We might find other ways of wrecking the world (and even if we don't manage that killing millions of people from wars, cockups etc) but global food/energy shortages caused by population growth can now pretty much be discounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, pig said: You can trust politicians as far as the electorates intelligence will throw them. If the electorate keeps stuffing its head with Murdoch the Mail et al then what do you expect? TPTB: the towering dark shadow cast by the electorates own choices and beliefs. I can only assume by that that you believe there is true democracy in the world and we can vote for whatever we believe in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, Confusion of VIs said: I am not relying on them to do anything, that just the way things are playing out. We might find other ways of wrecking the world (and even if we don't manage that killing millions of people from wars, cockups etc) but global food/energy shortages caused by population growth can now pretty much be discounted. I wish you were right, but the greed of the powerful will ensure that it does not happen. There is no reason for there to be starvation in the world today, but there is. And you can be guaranteed that we will find other ways to wreck the world. It all depends on your appetite for risk. Yours is obviously much higher than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Unexpected said: I read your post from a few days ago and will go back to make sure I see the video. I think you're relying on people and more importantly, those in charge to act in a certain way to achieve this future vision of the world with 20 billion humans. I have no doubt that its possible if the right people were always in charge but its never the right people or the right system. Forecasting seems to have a habit of going completely wrong, for example when the government forecast that only 250,000 East Europeans would come to the UK (a figure they pulled out of their 4rse) and Ten times that number came. The point being made was that we will never get to 20bn or anything like it. Also its not based on forecasts the birth slowdown that will limit the population to around 10bn has already happened. What growth we are seeing now is the time lag between births peaking and this working through into the overall population numbers. In the very long term the future probably is a world with far fewer people in it. Sadly for RQ this is probably a 100 years away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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