Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Futuroid]

3 minutes ago, pig said:

I mean it’s kind of beyond farce if we are reduced to trying to evade the norms we insisted on.

It's already way beyond farce.

People stand around pointing fingers at the EU and saying they are neoliberal. 

They are either too poorly informed to realise, or deliberately avoiding the fact that it was the input of the UK and Thatcher in particular that set the EU on that particular course. Many years after the UK privatised everything that wasn't nailed down (and a few things that were!) the EU eventually followed suit. 

A cursory glance at the ownership of Renault, Peugeot or Deutsche Bahn tells you just how keenly other major European states have embraced privatisation (and also give a wee clue that Corbyn might be stretching the truth when he claims the EU wouldn't let him renationalise the railways, etc.) 

[Futuroid]

Ok, up until now Brexit has been something that was popular with the olds, but the young'uns have been a bit reluctant.

This is bound to get them on board.

 

[thecrashingisles]

38 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Ok, up until now Brexit has been something that was popular with the olds, but the young'uns have been a bit reluctant.

This is bound to get them on board.

To be fair it's better than the Britain's Coming Home one from the referendum campaign.

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

Merkel's Hollow Victory Complicates May's Life and Brexit Talks

Angela Merkel’s pyrrhic victory is bad news for U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May and her hope of getting the German leader to wade into Brexit talks and help unlock negotiations.

For starters, the chancellor will be preoccupied with trying to stitch together a complicated three-way coalition. Put simply, if Brexit wasn’t a top priority before the election it is even less of one now. May’s big speech in Florence on Friday was in some measure an outreach to the 27 EU government heads -- especially the more influential ones.

“Brexit was not an issue in the campaign, and it will get even less important as Berlin will be busy shoring up Merkel’s euro zone reform plans against the AfD, and with everyone busy focusing on migration,” said Carsten Nickel, managing director at Teneo Intelligence. “If anything, AfD at almost 13 percent will serve as a reminder to not let the Brexiteers get away too easily.”  Bloomberg

 

 

[dugsbody]

Merkel wouldn't have saved the UK anyway. The writing is clearly on the wall that the integrity and ideals of the EU won't be compromised in the interest of a former member or short termism.

[kzb]

4 hours ago, Futuroid said:

It's already way beyond farce.

People stand around pointing fingers at the EU and saying they are neoliberal. 

They are either too poorly informed to realise, or deliberately avoiding the fact that it was the input of the UK and Thatcher in particular that set the EU on that particular course. Many years after the UK privatised everything that wasn't nailed down (and a few things that were!) the EU eventually followed suit. 

A cursory glance at the ownership of Renault, Peugeot or Deutsche Bahn tells you just how keenly other major European states have embraced privatisation (and also give a wee clue that Corbyn might be stretching the truth when he claims the EU wouldn't let him renationalise the railways, etc.) 

My understanding is we would not be allowed to re-create British Rail under forthcoming EU regulations.

It would have to be split into infrastructure and service provider (i.e. much like we have already in UK).  So, Deutsche Bahn will end up split in two as a minimum.

Services will be open to competition from all providers in the EU.  So the new British Rail service provider would have to compete with other EU providers in the UK.

So you might end up with a DB train to commute to work in UK but a British Rail train in Munich.

[Sheeple Splinter]

16 hours ago, Silverfinger said:

Translation was not correct. She said keep the EU together (not union) and build a stronger Europe (not Germany).

Thanks for the clarification.

[Futuroid]

6 minutes ago, kzb said:

My understanding is we would not be allowed to re-create British Rail under forthcoming EU regulations.

It would have to be split into infrastructure and service provider (i.e. much like we have already in UK).  So, Deutsche Bahn will end up split in two as a minimum.

Services will be open to competition from all providers in the EU.  So the new British Rail service provider would have to compete with other EU providers in the UK.

So you might end up with a DB train to commute to work in UK but a British Rail train in Munich.

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180

It's worth reading "British Lessons" for a heartwarming tale of British neoliberal stupidity.

[Futuroid]

Who can remember the heady days of 2016?

"The day after we vote we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want” - Michael Gove

“There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market” - Boris Johnson

Brexit: EU chief negotiator says no talks on transition period until divorce bill is settled

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-transition-period-single-market-eu-chief-negotiator-michel-barnier-talks-brussels-davis-davis-a7966616.html

Not only do the EU hold all the cards, I'm not sure they even allow David Davis to sit down when he attends the "negotiations" these days  

[pig]

6 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180

It's worth reading "British Lessons" for a heartwarming tale of British neoliberal stupidity.

Interesting but a bit inconclusive ?

It does strengthen my suspicion that this is the sort of issue that might be making Corbyn lukewarm over the EU.

Added benefit its actually a great deal more interesting and relevant to the country than arguing for gormless calamitous 'change' or with xenophobic ******tards.

[rollover]

17 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Who can remember the heady days of 2016?

"The day after we vote we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want” - Michael Gove

“There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market” - Boris Johnson

Brexit: EU chief negotiator says no talks on transition period until divorce bill is settled

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-transition-period-single-market-eu-chief-negotiator-michel-barnier-talks-brussels-davis-davis-a7966616.html

Not only do the EU hold all the cards, I'm not sure they even allow David Davis to sit down when he attends the "negotiations" these days  

From the article:
 

Quote

 

Mr Barnier said: "Discussing a transition period can only begin if we reach an agreement on an orderly withdrawal. That’s the mandate I have at the moment." "The discussion that is going to take place on this transition period – because the UK is asking for it – does not mean that we don’t need to achieve progress ‘sufficient progress’. Progress on these three issues [The divorce bill, citizens’ rights, and Northern Ireland] is more important than ever in order to create the trust that we need to build our future relationship."

"We’re not going to mix up discussion on debts and past commitments, those subjects that are a part of the orderly withdrawal, with discussions on our future relationship."

 

 

[Futuroid]

16 minutes ago, pig said:

Interesting but a bit inconclusive ?

It does strengthen my suspicion that this is the sort of issue that might be making Corbyn lukewarm over the EU.

Added benefit its actually a great deal more interesting and relevant to the country than arguing for gormless calamitous 'change' or with xenophobic ******tards.

Yes, it's inconclusive because the EU regulations do not cast in stone the model of railway competition we adopted and are not quite as prescriptive as many people suggest.  There is room for interpretation which is how the Germans and others manage to get away with it. Mind you, the UK didn't need the EU to "force" it to privatise the railways - it has been gagging to do it since the 70s and finally did the nasty in the 90s.

Corbyn strikes me as someone who is verging on dictatorial. In the same way that JRM and John Redwood want complete power to recreate 1850s Britain, he doesn't want anyone with the power to interfere with his vision for a return the 1970s. But, he's torn because he understands that the EU provided a backstop for the erosion of workers rights when the UK was in the grip of full on neolib madness in the 90s.

[HairyOb1]

56 minutes ago, kzb said:

My understanding is we would not be allowed to re-create British Rail under forthcoming EU regulations.

It would have to be split into infrastructure and service provider (i.e. much like we have already in UK).  So, Deutsche Bahn will end up split in two as a minimum.

Services will be open to competition from all providers in the EU.  So the new British Rail service provider would have to compete with other EU providers in the UK.

So you might end up with a DB train to commute to work in UK but a British Rail train in Munich.

Only if it was lost; I've more chance of securing a route in Munich than British Rail...

Edited September 25, 2017 by HairyOb1

[Riedquat]

58 minutes ago, kzb said:

My understanding is we would not be allowed to re-create British Rail under forthcoming EU regulations.

It would have to be split into infrastructure and service provider (i.e. much like we have already in UK).  So, Deutsche Bahn will end up split in two as a minimum.

Services will be open to competition from all providers in the EU.  So the new British Rail service provider would have to compete with other EU providers in the UK.

So you might end up with a DB train to commute to work in UK but a British Rail train in Munich.

You may already commute on a DB train, they own Arriva. And they also own one of the freight companies (was EWS).

[pig]

1 minute ago, Futuroid said:

Yes, it's inconclusive because the EU regulations do not cast in stone the model of railway competition we adopted and are not quite as prescriptive as many people suggest.  There is room for interpretation which is how the Germans and others manage to get away with it. Mind you, the UK didn't need the EU to "force" it to privatise the railways - it has been gagging to do it since the 70s and finally did the nasty in the 90s.

Corbyn strikes me as someone who is verging on dictatorial. In the same way that JRM and John Redwood want complete power to recreate 1850s Britain, he doesn't want anyone with the power to interfere with his vision for a return the 1970s. But, he's torn because he understands that the EU provided a backstop for the erosion of workers rights when the UK was in the grip of full on neolib madness in the 90s.

Well possibly - I'm still a bit undecided on JC but in principal at least he does seem to be offering genuine political 'change'.

Most of what people seem to be rebelling against are consequences of RW policy and ideology. It would be criminal to push the country onto RW on steroids by use of a series of straw-men - New Labour, the EU, immigrants etc. That seems to be the deadly trap we really need to get out of.

Reductio absurdum but I'm wondering what is going to be ultimately more palatable to  both the UK and the EU - JC and his nationalisation or Farage and his nationalism ? 

 

 

[rollover]

Quote

Trillions of pounds at risk without Brexit deal on derivatives, warns Bank of England Telegraph

This is going to be a bit of problem.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

"It's demonstrable that more, less educated, people voted for brexit than educated people" - Goverment stats, quoted by HairyOb1

Yay! That's much better. Thank you.

Now, imagine a country where access to education depends on the wealth of your parents, in turn often a result of the wealth of previous generations. The wealthiest 0.02%* pay for their children to make the contacts & friends that set them up for life, too often in positions running the country.

IMO, it's surprise that more of the rest of us, the 99.98%, didn't take the 2nd chance most of us have had in our lives to vote for change - and responsibility for our leaders.

 

* Eton pupils 1,300 13-18 , UK population of 13-18 year olds about 5,000,000  

[honkydonkey]

1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

You may already commute on a DB train, they own Arriva. And they also own one of the freight companies (was EWS).

and Chiltern.

[rollover]

Support grows for second Brexit vote

Support for a second referendum on Brexit is growing among British voters, amid diminishing optimism about the U.K.’s future outside the European Union. Politico.eu

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, highYield said:

Yay! That's much better. Thank you.

Now, imagine a country where access to education depends on the wealth of your parents, in turn often a result of the wealth of previous generations. The wealthiest 0.02%* pay for their children to make the contacts & friends that set them up for life, too often in positions running the country.

IMO, it's surprise that more of the rest of us, the 99.98%, didn't take the 2nd chance most of us have had in our lives to vote for change - and responsibility for our leaders.

 

* Eton pupils 1,300 13-18 , UK population of 13-18 year olds about 5,000,000  

What country might that be. Do you know any country that doesn't have a "top school".

The vote split didn't reflect membership of some wealthy elite. The crossover point was at a fairly low level of education, most likely just enough to see through the claims of both sides. A C in GCSE Maths should have been enough to see the membership bill issue for the irrelevancy it was.        

[sPinwheel]

1 hour ago, rollover said:

Support grows for second Brexit vote

Support for a second referendum on Brexit is growing among British voters, amid diminishing optimism about the U.K.’s future outside the European Union. Politico.eu

I don't think voting for a second vote depends on any vote. 

[cashinmattress]

Someone posted some pish about subsea data cabling about 10000 posts ago...as a case for Brexit?

Goal posts move.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/25/16359966/microsoft-facebook-transatlantic-cable-160-terabits-a-second

[macca13]

There are some very important milestones coming up, Austria and Czech Republic voters go to the poles.. Germans are are revolting.. some of the chicks are pretty hot though.. ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/857959/Andrej-Babis-Czech-elections-October-eurosceptic-euro-EU/amp

[ExiledMatty]

5 hours ago, rollover said:

Support grows for second Brexit vote

Support for a second referendum on Brexit is growing among British voters, amid diminishing optimism about the U.K.’s future outside the European Union. Politico.eu

Lies / stats

[GrizzlyDave]

2 hours ago, ExiledMatty said:

Lies / stats

Indeed.

It doesn’t say who produced it or where the data came from.

Fake news.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by GrizzlyDave