GrizzlyDave Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Really? Will be? What do you know that I don't" I just think it will kick off. Don’t you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, crouch said: Old arguments about what? We'll be out of the EU and therefore it presents the opportunity for tabula rasa. The present PD is just vassalage by any other name but is not legally binding so there is a lot to play for. I'm assuming that May will have been booted out when this gets underway and we'll have a PM with better cojones than now, although I'm not holding my breath. But what new will be taken along to the negotiating table that is not old argument or demand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: I just think it will kick off. Don’t you? No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 unicorns are great ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: This is a dynamite move. Democracy will be destroyed. There will be riots... That was my thought originally. Over time I'm coming round to thinking that actually we are hearing a lot of noise from the people that care passionately one way or another, but I suspect that as on so many issues the average British person just doesn't care. I voted in the referendum because I was brought up to believe voting is good. I was a bout 70:30 in favour of Remain so I voted Remain. WHATEVER happens with Brexit I will not be rioting. I will not be marching. I will not even be signing online petitions. MPs are paid to sort this sort of thing out, it's not my job. If there's another referendum then let me know, and I'll vote in it. Otherwise que sera sera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I just think it will kick off. Don’t you? You will lose your £25 pounds bet, and that will be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 48 minutes ago, rollover said: Some posters can't even say the difference between migration, net migration and how it is measured. Some even confusing it with NI - number registration numbers. Quelle surprise, a self-deprecating post! When you didn't reply to my post upthread, I assumed you couldn't reconcile the differences. Nevertheless, I'm happy to continue if you are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I just think it will kick off. Don’t you? Not riots, although there will inevitably be attempts to cause civil unrest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Just now, Sheeple Splinter said: Quelle surprise, a self-deprecating post! When you didn't reply to my post upthread, I assumed you couldn't reconcile the differences. Nevertheless, I'm happy to continue if you are... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btl_hater Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 25 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: This is a dynamite move. Democracy will be destroyed. There will be riots... Well, there won't. But if there was, i'd be well up for giving some Boomer Brexiters a good clip around the ear and/or kick up the ****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 51 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: Revoke A50 petition crashes website as demand to sign it soars. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584 They should have voted LD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlooker Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Why are the ERG lying? Answer me that. Lying about what, please remind me. For the record I think that all sides (and all politicians) lie. Some of which are intentional, but a lot are just because they don't really understand, or there are very different (but equally likely) intepretations that can be put on things. A silly but relevant example might be our relationship with the USA - it can be painted as both a friendly one (wartime support, shared values etc) and as an unfriendly one (helping destroy the British Empire, support for Irish terrorism, monopolistic behaviour of Google, Amazon etc, possible low chicken farming standards). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 51 minutes ago, yelims said: Her blood is on your hands, this brexiters/nationalist/fascist ideology is responsible for her death. The people who support Brexit own this. In same way that people of Germany owned and had to face up to nazi atrocities, in their case whether they supported them or not. No, Nair is responsible for her death and the people who support Brexit don't condone it. I see the little exercise had no effect on your bigotry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 34 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Just that Brexiteers seem very keen on painting a nice rosy picture of what may/could happen.... ...not unlike in the referendum..... did you give lessons? Hence the language of the unicorn... short for lingua Brexiteer. You seem like a clever chap tho.... too clever to not have a balanced view I think....shame that you don't employ a little more objectivity. Your fanciful view of the future is at odds with reality. The future has no reality - yet; that's why it's the future. It's hard; very, very hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, crouch said: The pure notion of a sovereign state is one which is equal to other sovereign states and can act independently; that is it defers to no authority outside itself. This is de jure sovereignty; de facto sovereignty is how much leeway you actually have in the real world - in other words it is a power relationship to others. Varoufakis is, to my mind, simply talking about an assymetry of power which can exist in almost any relationship of states in a power bloc or out. The mere fact of the EU being a collection of sovereign states formally - with some surrender of competences - does not prevent power dynamics asserting themselves at appropriate points. This is to be expected. I agree but since Varoufakis's comments were based on the Euro's existential crisis and Greece being subjugated by the EU/ECB/Troika, the asymmetry of power needs reform. I think ZZ posted Varoufakis's New Deal for Europe upthread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Quote Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU. Petition 940,067 signatures Houston we have a problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, rollover said: Houston we have a problem! Logically though since 16 million people voted Remain you could be in a situation with 16 million names on that petition and still no real indication that the country is against Brexit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 51 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: You are not alone, she's really shown her true colours. She should now do three things, all of them being discussed on the news channels this morning. 1, Revoke A50. 2, Call a GE. 3, Resign. Whilst I was typing the above she appeared on my TV screen carrying on as if nothing had happened, "I'm focused on delivering Brexit for the British people"... butter wouldn't melt in her mouth... Mad as a March hare. Tried making all sorts of excuses for her - eg she must also be under a lot of pressure from the EU to get this over the line. But she went too far last night - one of those moments like Jo Cox's murder and the nazi poster for me, crystallising worries and suspicions. Sure to 1,2 and 3 but its not really about slapping down TM. This Brexit has been botched by a PM with serious character flaws and/or principles, trapped in the landscape of a Tory party death spiral, by a secretly funded party within a party, by a populist perversion of democracy. She's destroyed the one reason people found her tolerable, that she was the grown-up in the room, that she could somehow rise above all of this. A plan for Brexit needs to grow out of a cross-party consensus, representing the whole of the UK - not some fictional 17m co-opted by a load of authoritarian fecktards and worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, rollover said: Houston we have a problem! 952K actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Now, 960,335 signatures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, rollover said: But what new will be taken along to the negotiating table that is not old argument or demand? You are asking what could be taken to the negotiating table. In general the PD continues in the same vein as the WA: "soft" vassalage. It subjects the UK to the EU far more than is necessary for trade and economic purposes. One part says explicitly:"the United Kingdom will consider aligning with Union rules in relevant areas”. This is just one of many such conditions in the PD that tie the UK to the EU. IMV this needs just throwing out and a much more balanced relationship defined. You can say that this result is simply a reflection of relative power and this is an argument that cannot be dismissed lightly. However, we have a net adverse trading balance with the EU of around £70 bn a year; are a major player in areas such as security and defence and financial services so we do have cards to play. By their own admission the EU is in trouble; when these negotiations become substantive in a years time, say, we may be in a different place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, rollover said: Now, 960,335 signatures 963,500 that's a rate of about 1,000 per minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 2 hours ago, yelims said: What shall you do come next general election? who are you going to vote for? Spoil my ballot most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, onlooker said: Lying about what, please remind me. For the record I think that all sides (and all politicians) lie. Some of which are intentional, but a lot are just because they don't really understand, or there are very different (but equally likely) intepretations that can be put on things. A silly but relevant example might be our relationship with the USA - it can be painted as both a friendly one (wartime support, shared values etc) and as an unfriendly one (helping destroy the British Empire, support for Irish terrorism, monopolistic behaviour of Google, Amazon etc, possible low chicken farming standards). Me a conspirator? I look for intellectual honesty when it comes to Brexit, and it’s in desperately short supply. Rather trying to pick holes in everything I say, do your own research. Look at those who know WTO and how international trade works, not take it as red from those charlatans in Tufton St. If I’m wrong and there are instances where it proves that I am wrong, then that’s fine, but the questions you ask seems as if you know little about how all the these systems interconnect. How do you know that there isn’t a conspiracy? Those from the ERG are mendaciously lying. Why? For what end? It’s very easy to poo poo, but from the evidence over the last two years leads me that there is something going on. There are two instances that immediately spring to mind. The one that JRM loves to peddle, is GATT article 24. Those who know anything about G24 and the WTO know that the UK cannot trade as is for ten years whilst we unilateral envoke it. Remember Plan A Plus? Most people don’t. It was a dreadful piece of work that sunk without trace. One of the main authors? Singham. There he is, at the end. It thought that the NI border could be solved with a MRA agreement - which is rot. Many of the ideas were lifted from a Legatum Brexit paper (the name of which escapes me). John Crace gave it a well deserved obliteration. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/hard-brexiters-new-plan-gets-a-for-idiocy Edited March 21, 2019 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 970,150 signatures Parliament considers all petitions that get more than 100,000 signatures for a debate Waiting for 1 day for a debate date Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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