regprentice Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 34 minutes ago, erat_forte said: That's very similar to how Tony Blair's "focus groups" worked, except it was a selection of people rather than the entire population who voted. The focus groups decided that taxes should be cut and the transport system should not be invested in. 10 years later the focus groups were raging at the government for letting the transport system go to the dogs. Thats quite sensible though. we really need abstract thinking. sometimes you have to "look through" what people say and understand what they mean. in that case im sure people were saying id rather drive than take the bus or train... take funding from buses to make driving a more pleasant experience. I doubt blair had the foresight to do anything other than take those comments at face value. For example the UK train network is expensive, unreliable and only really serves the needs of the south east of england. Until flybe went bust you could fly edinburgh to cardiff for 1/4 the cost of the train in 1/10 of the time. I've posted before a friend worked for a northern rail company. they had a "blue sky" thinking event on the future of trains. they started with the observation that it would be cheaper for them to give every customer a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce than run their night trains. In the end the train company staff decided the best use of the train network was to concrete over the tracks and treat it as a second motorway network for the UK only for HGVs and Coaches/buses. Thats why we need that kind of left field thinking. Politicians will never move their direction of travel by more than a few degrees at any given time. house price inflation as been 400% since i left school ... where is the policy in any manifesto measured in hundreds of percent? there isnt one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) Deliver an electoral system that allows people to vote for the party they like the most - and will see them get elected - rather than making a choice between one of two parties they hate the least. The next election in 2029 will perhaps be more interesting - when after five years people discover SKS and Rachel Reeves haven't been able to solve the fundamental problems the UK faces, the NHS still isn't working and has long waiting lists and most young people are still priced out of buying a decent home. Things can only get worse?!! Edited February 11 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightowl Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 3 hours ago, regprentice said: For example the UK train network is expensive, unreliable and only really serves the needs of the south east of england. Until flybe went bust you could fly edinburgh to cardiff for 1/4 the cost of the train in 1/10 of the time. Maybe that's one reason Flybe went bust? The SE transport system though does suffer from being Londons transport system though where all motorways and rail lines go in/of it but far worse between satellite towns. There is poor connections say from Reading to Oxford or High Wycombe despite their closeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlee74 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 On 10/02/2024 at 09:43, debtlessmanc said: i am also a supporter of PR I think on balance it’s the least worst option. But the vote on that went against me so I have to accept that. I do not remember a vote on PR? I remember a vote on AV, which is an entirely different thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14stFlyer Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 7 hours ago, regprentice said: You cant fit a fag paper in the gap between conservative and labour housing policies... but housing is the biggest single problem in the minds of young people..... by voting for either party they are saying "i accept and approve of your housing policy" amd giving that party a mandate to do that for another 5 years - they simply dont want to do that and have no other feasible choice at the polling station. This is the issue for me. There are no choices to make between the two parties of state on all the issues that are important to our lives. We are Turkeys voting for which trimmings will be served with us at Christmas Dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Both parties have been 'bought' by the bent capitalist fiat printing establishment. At this point in time communism is looking attractive. Western Capitalism needs to at the very least provide the basics for a working man. That has now failed, so anyone with half a brain can see that the 'system' isn't fit for purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14stFlyer Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, danlee74 said: On 2/10/2024 at 9:43 AM, debtlessmanc said: i am also a supporter of PR I think on balance it’s the least worst option. But the vote on that went against me so I have to accept that. I do not remember a vote on PR? I remember a vote on AV, which is an entirely different thing. Yep. There has never been a vote for PR in the U.K. Strange really as all the democratic systems we have had influence in setting up in the recent past (Scottish parliament, Welsh Assembly, Stormont, even EU institutions) have all been PR based. It feels like all our politicians know it is the right thing to do, but none of them are prepared to lose their privileged position to do it. Edited February 11 by 14stFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, danlee74 said: I do not remember a vote on PR? I remember a vote on AV, which is an entirely different thing. Coalition government we were sold would get a vote on PR.......AV what got, a complete con, few knew what it meant, many had never heard of it before let alone understood what it was....few voted on the day.....confuse and obfuscate.......Brexit anyone who thought they knew what they voted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 6 hours ago, Social Justice League said: Both parties have been 'bought' by the bent capitalist fiat printing establishment. Democracy is just oligarchy with extra steps. Nothing can be fixed so long as people continue with their mad belief that voting will somehow fix things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 11/02/2024 at 07:29, nome said: You can't "improve" something that you don't even have in the first place. We don't have Democracy in this country, we do have a heady coalition of Corporatocracy, Kleptocracy and Oligarchy. Getting to have a meaningless and irrelevant vote for whichever self-enriching puppet of the above once every few years isn't Democracy Exactly. Money, always money Just finished this book: Corruptible: Who Gets Power and How it Changes Us eBook : Klaas, Brian: Amazon.co.uk: Books https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corruptible-Who-Gets-Power-Changes-ebook/dp/B0932K38TN The only way is to watch them, regulate their powers and for the media to start holding them to account. Make it much harder to steal, lobbying meetings have to be recorded by law and make sure there are serious consequences for corruption. Our government is neck-deep in corporate interest lobbying and billionaire bribes. This is not democracy as you say. Make sure everything they do is watched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 18 hours ago, 14stFlyer said: Yep. There has never been a vote for PR in the U.K. Strange really as all the democratic systems we have had influence in setting up in the recent past (Scottish parliament, Welsh Assembly, Stormont, even EU institutions) have all been PR based. It feels like all our politicians know it is the right thing to do, but none of them are prepared to lose their privileged position to do it. AV would be better than what we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 11/02/2024 at 12:45, MARTINX9 said: Deliver an electoral system that allows people to vote for the party they like the most - and will see them get elected - rather than making a choice between one of two parties they hate the least. The next election in 2029 will perhaps be more interesting - when after five years people discover SKS and Rachel Reeves haven't been able to solve the fundamental problems the UK faces, the NHS still isn't working and has long waiting lists and most young people are still priced out of buying a decent home. Things can only get worse?!! For once I agree with one of your posts. I hope people don't continue to vote for The Conservative Party given that they've failed for 14 years. That would be a shame. But I have no illusions that Labour will be able to fix the UK. Our problems are so deep that no short term policy that can be enacted within 5 years is going to change that. What will probably happen is people will become wildly disillusioned with Labour and vote them out in 2029, but just putting the Conservative Party back in power, and we repeat. The two main parties have parasitic control over our political system and won't let it be changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 hours ago, dugsbody said: For once I agree with one of your posts. I hope people don't continue to vote for The Conservative Party given that they've failed for 14 years. That would be a shame. But I have no illusions that Labour will be able to fix the UK. Our problems are so deep that no short term policy that can be enacted within 5 years is going to change that. What will probably happen is people will become wildly disillusioned with Labour and vote them out in 2029, but just putting the Conservative Party back in power, and we repeat. The two main parties have parasitic control over our political system and won't let it be changed. Vote tactically against the Tories then. Sadly, in my case that will probably be labour, but in many constituencies Lib Dems, Greens etc., could be the beneficiary of tactical voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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